Author Topic: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools  (Read 3255 times)

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
[3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« on: May 20, 2012, 01:43:06 PM »
Here's what I thought out:
Evocation + Conjuration
Abjuration + Divination
Enchantment + Illusion
Necromancy + Transmutation

Evo/Conj specialist bans Abj/Div and vice versa.
Ench/Illu bans Necro/Tran and vice versa.

Is that more-or-less balanced?
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2012, 04:12:05 PM »
Epic Psi in SRD , is different from XPH in SRD , and
Dragon #349 has psiotheurgist feats go more different.


Enchantment = Telepathy ... not much difference
Divination = Clairsentince ... some different things.

Metacreativity = Conj
... there's a Shadow switch to something else (iidrc).

Psychoportation = Conj (teleport) ... is easy
Psychometabolism = Transmutation , but
Psychometabolism (healing) = Conj (healing)
Psychokinesis = Evocation


More distinctions but this probably doesn't help much.
 :tongue
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2012, 04:43:08 PM »
It doesn't help at all. I don't understand the relevance of psionics to this thread.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline OutlawPhilosopher

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 55
  • veritas vos liberabit
    • View Profile
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 09:57:30 PM »
We are now allowing Divination to be banned?

Seems to me like the Trans/Necro spec is clearly the best. Ench/Illu are both common bans (jointly second to Evo) as far as I can gather, and Trans is probably (arguably, maybe) the strongest school. Losing most of your will-targeting effects is very annoying, but at least at high levels, mind blank exists, and most of them are mind affecting.

All the other options result in losing something fairly important.


Edit:
Oops. Just saw this was 3.P. I have never played with pathfinder spell changes, and all bets are off. Maybe transmutation is awful now (they hit polymorph pretty hard, right?) Take my comments with a large grain of nacl.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2012, 10:00:11 PM by OutlawPhilosopher »

Offline Captnq

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1602
  • Haters gonna hate. Dragons gonna drag.
    • View Profile
    • Ask the Captain
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2012, 12:03:56 AM »
Here's what I thought out:
Evocation + Conjuration
Abjuration + Divination
Enchantment + Illusion
Necromancy + Transmutation
Evo/Conj specialist bans Abj/Div and vice versa.
Ench/Illu bans Necro/Tran and vice versa.
Is that more-or-less balanced?
No.

Seriously. Do you really believe that spellcasters aren't powerful enough? So Now I can get Spell Focus (Conjuration) and it also adds to the DC of my fireballs? What about dual-school spells? Are they now Quad-school spells? Now I can use Black Lore of Moil on all my Transmutations? Can I use the subschools of one and add them to the other? I have some Figment Enchantments I'd like to try out. If I can't mix and match the subschools, then why combine them in the first place?
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
Encyclopedia Vinculum Draconis

Currently: Podcasting

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2012, 02:27:34 AM »
While thematically it looks like nice pairings, mechanically thats a pretty bad way to set things up.
Evocation and Conjuration are both the 'do active things' schools, so its fine in its own right(neither of them are much good for setting up ongoing effects, save for conjuration's Calling). They have lots of stuff you can do in combat, and conjuration provides out of combat. Theres a lot of overlap, but the sheer strength of conjuration makes up for that.

Abjuration and Divination on the other hand, have nothing 'active' they can do, in particular, for specialization, you need to consider spells that might actually be thrown multiple times a day. Not such a good idea when you contrast it with the active schools.

Enchantment and Illusion now, are similar to the first group in that they overlap heavily. Except, they have the exact same weaknesses, and target the same save subset.

Necromancy and Transmutation at the end, is also similar, but with the sheer strength of transmutation pulling it ahead, not to mention buffing necromantic minions with transmutations.

So...overall I'd like to ask, whats the objective of this consolidation? I can see this being of use if you went with the 'narrow spec' option and eliminated the option to use spells outside your speciality entirely(which would thus give each school a 'stock' fighting style), though I doubt the conjurers or transmuters would notice much.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2012, 04:01:37 AM »
I see that it won't be possible to make it balanced AND thematic... unless someone has better ideas?

A second idea is to have fixed banned schools, depending on the school you choose to specialize in. For example you choose Conjuration, so you ban Transmutation and and Abjuration. Maybe even ban three schools when you choose the better schools? What do you think?

The objective is to lower Wizards power to at least T2 (if not T3) by enforcing Specialization, but also fixng the issue of choosing a good school and banning the useless ones.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Halinn

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2067
  • My personal text is impersonal.
    • View Profile
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 04:10:07 AM »
Just considering some theory here: disallow specialization and ACFs. That should take wizards down to what their intended weak side would be, compared to sorcerers: lack of spell slots.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2012, 04:23:25 AM »
I don't think that's enough.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: [3.P] Consolidating spell schools
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 12:13:55 PM »
I see that it won't be possible to make it balanced AND thematic... unless someone has better ideas?

A second idea is to have fixed banned schools, depending on the school you choose to specialize in. For example you choose Conjuration, so you ban Transmutation and and Abjuration. Maybe even ban three schools when you choose the better schools? What do you think?

The objective is to lower Wizards power to at least T2 (if not T3) by enforcing Specialization, but also fixng the issue of choosing a good school and banning the useless ones.
You can do it with total exclusivity. ONLY spells in your specialization, but forget the idea of a straightforward pairing up of schools. Spell schools are not created equal after all. Some school combinations won't work on a wizard chassis either.

Abjuration + Evocation gets you a stereotypical battlemage, with the spells providing defense along with offense and combined, they have some adequate utility.

Divination on the other hand, has practically no combat uses(but a ton of utility), so you'd have to package it with combinations weak at noncombat utility, or make a new chassis entire for it. You could steal some combat divination stuff off psionics, they do that decently.

Necromancy + Transmutation(with significant polymorph nerfing) gives you a manipulator of life and death, with heavy suites of buffs and debuffs alike, and a source of minions to use them on.

Conjuration and Transmutation as they are, are easily strong enough to stand by themselves if necessary.

Illusion + Conjuration(with severely nerfed Calling) gets you a trickery and control mage. Alternatively, you could put Illusion + Enchantment on a revamped chassis and get a Beguiler.

In either case, if you want to weaken the wizard, you'd want to consolidate some of the schools to cover their fatal weaknesses, and THEN make bans matter more. Exclusivity of magic to the specialist school alone could do that.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.