Author Topic: [PF] Are casters still the best at Melee?  (Read 16538 times)

Offline StreamOfTheSky

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Re: [PF] Are casters still the best at Melee?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2012, 02:28:51 AM »
Barbarians can get pounce...at level 10.  Summoner can get it at 1, though (thread topic, much...?).

Paladin DPR is basically X enemies / day are just plain marked for death, all the others...you have a big sword and PF's version of PA.  So you're alright for damage...  (X = your # of smite uses/day).  Summoner DPR is actually much higher based on that same principle, since he can just keep summoning new minions with Smite much more often than the paladin can use it.  And those summons may come in a pack, may have multiple attacks, and/or may have pounce.

Cleric has the same problem as 3E, buff time at start of combat.  Dvine Meta Persistent cheese solved it, without that, it was no less a "problem" there than it is in PF now.  At least now at higher levels the cleric can take Spell Perfection on his favorite spell and quicken it for free as much as he wants.  I have that set up with Divine Power, it's pretty awesome.

Druid definitely got banged up way more than the other casters (largely due to the fact that every other caster except bard was straight up buffed out the ass with cool new shit), but they have several silver linings.  Now all equip except armor and shield meld when wildshaped but are still functional!  That's awesome!  Also, more natural attacks are considered primary now, so you can easily end up with 3+ attacks all at highest BAB and full str to damage.  The ability to speak while in wild shape is now codified into a feat (Wild Speech) should you want it.  On the other hand, elementals can talk anyway and you gain access to those forms and plant forms (though plant forms ALL suck total freaking ass, seriously) much earlier than in 3E.  Hell, you get wildshape earlier and large and huge size at least 2 levels earlier than in 3E!  And once you get up to huge size, powerful wildshape feat (count as +1 size for CMB) can give you at least a +2 to all combat maneuver checks, +4 if you can be enlarged and polymorphed simultaneously (I've seen it argued both ways).
Druid is still pretty strong.

EK is fine for what it does, people complain about gishes too much.  In the end, a Fighter 1 / Wiz 9 / EK 10 is much weaker than a Wiz 20, but also much stronger than a Fighter 20.  Like seriously...what were you expecting?  "Whoah, I mixed a weak class with a strong one and ended up with...something in between them in power level... gnarly!"  You can even take a trait to recoup the 2 lost spellcasting progression levels (though not the extra spells per day / higher level spells acquired).
The only "problem" it has is that the Magus exists and basically stole its niche.  Want to be a warrior with lots of magical backup and attacks/buffing?  Just be a magus and blend the two together in the same action!  Oh, but you want the advantage of 9th level casting from a much wider spell list...wait, why are you losing 2 CL again?

Offline deuxhero

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Re: [PF] Are casters still the best at Melee?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2012, 11:42:24 PM »
The Magus can access the Wizard list for an Arcana (or feat) and near capstone, just at the same spell levels and 1-6 casting.

Synthergist Summoner is also an intresting gish in a can and being charisma based, you can also get 3 spells off the sorc/wiz spell list with Improved Eldritch Heritage:Arcane (And Half-Elf, who are the "default" summoner thanks to extra evo points, gets the first requirement feat for free). Strictly inferior to normal Summoner though (though the IEH:Arcane bit works for any charisma caster).

Paladin has some pretty crazy spell in Pathfinder in addition to its smite, most of which are for making you better at ass kicking than utility though. Litany of Righteous is a swift action level 2 spell that makes evil creatures take double (!) damage from creatures with a good aura (Which means you, plus any allied clerics and prehaps some obscurer class). Its cousin Litany of Sloth disables AoO and (more importantly) defensive casting (cast it while holding a reach weapon, charge with your armor spikes and non-Batman casters are in a pickle). 13 Int (ouch) gets you spells from the cleric, bard or inquisitor list through unsanctioned knowledge (not as good as Sword of the Arcane Order, but still neat). (I also just realized that while Pathfinder has an Extra x feat for pretty much every class feature, Extra Smite is absent.)

Uh... moving on.

While technically third party, War Mind is a lot easier to enter thanks to the new skill system (so you only need to blow 1 feat, pick a psionic race or dip a Psionic class, and Soulknife works for that dip while maintaining full BAB, HD, 4+int skill points and Power Attack as a bonus feat) and Psionics lacks the inexplicable melee nerfs of PF. Cavalier 4/Soulknife 1/Warmind 10 is pretty neat. Keep full BAB, get some pretty good manifesting, a full progression Animal Companion (thanks to Horse Master) and a method of getting pounce on your charger. Shame Cavalier mount doesn't get share spells for sharing the powers.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 12:37:58 AM by deuxhero »