Monk unarmed strikes + Natural weapons (and gaining more of the latter)

[JakobMunk]

Hi there. Once again i am asking for a bit of help

The Monk entry for [Improved unarmed strike] states that the monks unarmed attacks can come from any part of the body (knee, elbow, what ever)

Now my character has a gore attack and 2 claw attacks as natural weapons. Could I, as a full attack routine, make a full attack with BOTH all my monk attacks (not using flurry, this is just 1 attack right? and then 2 with +6 BAB and so forth, please correct if this asumption is false) AND all 3 natural weapons, for a total of 4 attacks in 1 round (treating all my natural weapons as secondary attacks).

Also, I have the [Pounce] special ability. I charge in head first with a Gore attack. Then follow with Claws and Monk unarmed attacks. Would that work?

My gore attack is racial from Krynn Minotaur, Claws are from Feral template. Are there anyway to get a bite attack or maybe a some other natural attack on top? Feats, classes or templates are welcome, but please, if I can avoid level adjustment that is best.

I have 1 (maybe 3) feats to blow. Can spend 2 levels (if full BAB progression) on gaining more natural attacks.

Jakob

[Kalleo]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a
Yes, you can do a full attack that way, with an unarmed strike as your primary hit and your three natural attacks as secondary. You can flurry and use natural attacks as well, the natural attacks just come after the flurry and also incur the -2 from flurrying (at 1) in addition to the -5 for being secondary naturals.

I'm not sure about the ruling on the gore attack. Typically, attacks are rolled primarys first, secondarys...second. So I'm not sure whether goring first would matter to that or not. Potentially, you could just take the -5 on your first attack, then make your monk attacks as primaries, then make the rest of your naturals at -5 again...not sure what the official ruling is on that.

Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3060.0) is a classic way to combine monk with optimizing for natural attacks, and would get you a bite (though you would lose your gore, since you'd be turning into a bear)... Template wise, there aren't any +0's that give natural attacks afaik. The "Bite of the Were<whatever>" spells can give you some additional natural attacks...bites at the very least. Level 2 of Dragon Disciple gets you a bite attack. Dipping Cleric and taking the Hunger Domain gets you a bite as well. Willing Deformity + Teeth gets you a bite for the price of 2 feats, found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=4

[Lunarambling]

I am going to assume that you might be doing a Feral Half-Minotaur, since they happen to get those very same natural attacks. If that is the case, and your base race is not set in stone, Darfallan (sp?) from Stormwrack get a Bite attack. Also, Shifters, who have great flavor, can have a bite while shifting, and also get other benefits through the expenditure of feats. Warforged can also spend a feat to get a bite, though they don't qualify for those templates.

[zook1shoe]

Grafts can get you natural attacks for very cheap, check out the handbook

[nijineko]

natural attacks can be secondary attacks to either a simple attack or a flurry. however, if you flurry, all attacks get the penalty, including the secondary attacks, iirc.

there is no particular rule that attacks have to be rolled in a given order, the terms primary and secondary are just distinguishing terms for which attacks get the penalties, not an indication of order of iteration.

one of the better ways of getting more natural attacks is to manage to qualify for warshaper. tentacle attacks count as both bludgeoning and slashing (if you are using kraken tentacles), which allows you to use greater mighty wallop and bloodwind in conjunction with various of your attacks. there is no inherent limit on how many natural weapons you can grow as a warshaper according to the text, but some dm's limit you to what number of attacks are listed in the mm(s).

i have a thri-kreen with the insectile template combined with a warshaper qualification method, a monk, and the dervish prestige using claws and kraken tentacles as the slashing weapons, and the tentacles count as a colossal creature or so due to greater mighty wallop (which can only be applied to bludgeoning, which kraken tentacles are).

[JakobMunk]

Thanks for the asnwers However the linked article seems to contradict me using flurry, quoting: The example monk cannot use a flurry of blows because a flurry doesn't work with natural weaponry.. Any oversight on my part, or can i, in fact, not use flurry?

Also, race is Krynn minotaur from dragonlance campaign setting. I did take the feral template though. I had Darfellan at first, but actiually changed it back to minotaur. I could add that half minotaur template and take Darfellan, but then I would be at level adjustment +2

If it helps my build is this: 2 levels open, need to fullfill requirements ofc.

Level 1: Martial monk
Legendary wrestler bonus feat
Jotunbrud (flaw)
Toughness (flaw)
Troll-blooded (level)

Level 2 (OPEN)

Level 3: Lion totem barbarian (to gain pounce)
Battlejump (level)

Level 4: Ranger (to gain track)

Level 5: Fangshield ranger (to gain multiattack) This is the reason i need 2 different natural attacks, also i need to be non humanoid (feral template gives both of these benefits)

Level 6 (OPEN)
OPEN FEAT (level)

Level 7: Scaled Horror (to gian Improved grab) I qualify thanks to amphibious template)

Level 8: Black Clood Cultist 

Level 9: Black Blood Cltist
Multigrap (level)

[Lunarambling]

Personally, I would go for the feral half-minotaur darfallan. With a total of +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis +5 Nat Armor, +10 movement Speed Half Minotaur is an amazing template for a bruiser type. Especially if LA buy off is in place. With Feral and a Darfellan your Stat Mods would be:

Str: +18
Dex: -6
Con: +8
Int: -6
Wis: +4

+20ft movement
+ Large Size
+ Reach
+ Claws do 1d8 due to size
+11 Natural Armor

Also, if you can convince your DM that Hit Dice refer to ANY HIT DICE, as in also from Class, than you might have some built in boosts. I have personally seen it played both ways though so ymmv. The justification that was given in the last game that I played in that allowed the Hit Dice abilities from Feral was that it was the same as a Raptoran's Flight or a Dragonborn's various abilities, and if I recall, they are even worded rather similarly.

[zook1shoe]

*snip* Black Blood Cltist

always a great choice

did you ever check out the graft handbook?
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=575

my favorite is the skeleton hand, 3k for an extra hand AND claw attack, and zero drawbacks!!

its a great guide that will help lots with the Black Blood Cultist, since you want natural attacks when you start savage grappling

Personally, I would go for the feral half-minotaur darfallan. With a total of +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis +5 Nat Armor, +10 movement Speed Half Minotaur is an amazing template for a bruiser type. Especially if LA buy off is in place. With Feral and a Darfellan your Stat Mods would be:

skarn gets you an additional natural attack for free

[Genuine]

I've always thought that the flurry restriction against natural attacks just means that you can't get extra natural attacks using flurry. You can flurry your unarmed attacks, then take your secondary (natural attacks) with all the penalties.

By the way, my favorite monk build is really a tashalatora psychic warrior with all the illithid feats that grant tentacles. Monk2/Psychic Warrior 4 can pick up four tentacles (each with improved grab) as natural attacks. Of course, it takes five feats to do it, but psychic warriors get bonus feats anyways.

[edit]Ok, you need monk 2/psychic warrior 5 to get it, unless you're human or are allowed flaws. You need illithid heritage and one other illithid feat (I like Illithid skin, but Illithid legacy can be useful too), then you can take Illithid grapple four times.

[Kalleo]

Ah, Black Blood Cultist...love that class. Anyway, you're right, that link I posted seems to suggest you can't use natural attacks with Flurry. Frankly, that's stupid, and thankfully the FAQ contradicts it!

"Can a monk who has natural weapon attacks (such as a
centaur monk) attack unarmed and still use his natural
weapons? For example, let’s say he’s a 4th-level monk. Can
he use a flurry of blows and attack at +5/+5/+0 unarmed
(plus other bonuses) and then at +0/+0 for 2 hooves?

If the creature normally is allowed to make both weapon
attacks and natural weapon attacks as part of the same full
attack routine, the monk can do the same (making unarmed
strikes in place of weapon attacks). Since a centaur can make
two hoof attacks in addition to his longsword attack, a centaur
monk can make two hoof attacks in addition to his unarmed
strike attack (or attacks, depending on his base attack bonus).
The monk can’t use his natural weapon attacks as part of a
flurry of blows, but he can make natural weapon attacks in
addition to his flurry. Such attacks suffer the same –2 penalty
as the monk’s flurry attacks in addition to the normal –5."

From the main 3.5 found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

[linklord231]

A Totemist 2 dip would allow you to bind Girallon Arms for 4 extra Claw attacks. 

[Lunarambling]

*snip* Black Blood Cltist

always a great choice

did you ever check out the graft handbook?
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=575

my favorite is the skeleton hand, 3k for an extra hand AND claw attack, and zero drawbacks!!

its a great guide that will help lots with the Black Blood Cultist, since you want natural attacks when you start savage grappling

Personally, I would go for the feral half-minotaur darfallan. With a total of +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int, +2 Wis +5 Nat Armor, +10 movement Speed Half Minotaur is an amazing template for a bruiser type. Especially if LA buy off is in place. With Feral and a Darfellan your Stat Mods would be:

skarn gets you an additional natural attack for free

Skarn get their Spine attack, however, I have seen many DMs limit it due to this quote:

"A skarn can’t attack with his
spines and a weapon wielded by the same arm in the same
round."

I have had more than one DM say that you can't claw and spine attack since the claw is part of the same arm and it is a logic extrapolation. That may not be RAW, but it is, at least for me, a common ruling that I have seen. YMMV. Also, Darfellan get a Bite attack for the same damage, but if it is their primary attack they can add strength and a half. That seems way better to me.

Skarn= 1d6+Str limited by DM interpretation of the above quote.
Darfellan= 1d6+Str*1.5 Not limited by such a quote.

And a Skarn and Darfellan would be the same LA. The +2 comes from the templates so would be present either way.

[zook1shoe]

*nods* the skarn is limited that way, but I was more looking at the savage grapple #of natural attacks, and depending on the build (obviously) more natural attacks is better

[Lunarambling]

*nods* the skarn is limited that way, but I was more looking at the savage grapple #of natural attacks, and depending on the build (obviously) more natural attacks is better

Right, but a Skarn and a Darfellan both get a free natural attack. In addition the Darfellan get a marginally useful Swim speed and echolocation.

half Mino/Feral Skarn= Claw, Claw, debatable Spine, Gore
half Mino/Feral Darfellan= Claw, Claw, Bite, Gore

Unless going into Totemist or something I don't see where Skarn would be a better choice at all. And even then, I don't know if the 1 point of essentia would really be worth it in comparison.

[zook1shoe]

agreed, looking back over the list.... Darfellon seem to be the best bet