Force vs DR

[kitep]

I remember hearing (I think on this board) that force effects ignore DR.  Anyone know where this rule is?  And if it applies to DR - (dash)?

I'm especially asking in regards to chakra bind Crystal Helm, that gives the force descriptor to melee attacks.

Thanks.

[phaedrusxy]

Damage Reduction

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

Most Force effects should fall into the latter category, I'd think.

I don't know enough about Incarnum to make a call on that, though... I think RAI it should ignore DR. RAW, I'm not sure. Maybe not.

[Unbeliever]

Ninja'ed by Phaedrus.

I always thought of force as an energy attack.  But, apparently it's not strictly speaking.  So, maybe it doesn't ignore DR ...

[kitep]

A projectile weapon with the force prop-
erty turns ammunition shot from it into a
force attack. These force projectiles auto-­
matically overcome damage reduction and
suffer no miss chance against incorporeal
targets, but they don't damage creatures
immune to force effects.

Implies that force overcomes DR, but could also be interpreted that overcoming DR is part of the Force enhancement and not a side effect of being made from force.

The Psychokinetic weapon enhancement (MIC-41) also adds force damage that ignores DR

This extra damage is not affected by
damage reduction, and it affects incor­-
poreal creatures even if the attack would
normally miss due to the incorporeal
miss chance.

It's enough to convince me, but I'll see if it convinces my DM.

[kitep]

Hmmm.....

Now I'm seeing Rod of Whips (MIC-58) that creates tendrils of force.  No mention of ignoring DR (but no mention of not ignoring DR either)

On command, a rod of whips grows
a magic tendril of force from one
end that functions as a whip. Once
activated, a rod of whips acts as a +1
dancing whip that can strike incor-­
poreal creatures as a force effect.

Ditto with Rings of Force Armor (MIC-128)

In addition, your unarmed
strikes deal an extra 1d4 points of damage
and can affect incorporeal creatures as if
they were force effects.

[sirpercival]

Spells can do Force damage which is essentially untyped damage.  They also have the [Force] descriptor which lets them hit incorporeal things.  Crystal Helm grants the descriptor so that your attacks can hit incorporeal things, but doesn't change the damage type, so DR still applies.

[NunoM]

According to this: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_forcedamage&alpha= Force damage is only considered for incorporeal creatures...

I didn't check incarnum but it seems like it confers the same effect to unarmed strikes as, say, the weapons created by the Gloves of Endless Javelins. So... they wouldn't overcome DR, but would be very good against incorporeals.

EDIT: if it came from a spell, such as Magic Missile or, maybe, Spiritual Weapon (hmm... i have doubts on this one) then it would overcome DR.

[kitep]

Thanks all.  Judging by what NunoM posted, I don't think Crystal Helm will allow my attacks to bypass DR.

[Vicerious]

Spells ignore DR by default, even when they do "physical" damage.  No DR of any kind would protect a creature from the bludgeoning damage dealt by ice storm, for example.

The blanket rule is at the top of Damage Reduction:

A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

There are spells that are exceptions, but these specifically call that out in their descriptions.  See splinterbolt (Spell Compendium, pg 203).

[kitep]

Would you let the +1 damage from Magic Weapon bypass DR?  I know spells in general bypass DR, but not all spells that enhance your weapon do.

[NunoM]

The spell Magic Weapon confers a +1 enhancement bonus to the weapon.

Effectively the weapon becomes a +1, such as a longsword +1 straight of the shelves of a (magic) store.
The damage dealt will be weapon damage, not spell damage.