Battle Archer - Build ideas and help

[Kerrus]

Okay, so the long and short of it is that I haven't actually played 3.5 in a long time. Aside from an abortive game sometime last year, the last time I played 3.5 was easily three years ago- since then I've mostly played fourth.

However recently a friend has decided to put together a new 3.5 group and invited me- and despite being a low level game (level 3), the setting is eberron and the character choices people are making are shaping up to be pretty high power. Lots of casters, and at least one monk/psiwarrior/prc gish.


I always wanted to do some sort of archer, and didn't feel like trawling through years old threads trying to find stuff so I eventually did some work on putting together some sort of ambush sniper. However when you aren't a caster you end up being the skill monkey character sort of by default- and that ended up with a lot of fiddly bits that gave me a big headache. I've experimented with a couple options- ranging from scout, to rouge, to swift hunter and while interesting I'm already feeling a little outdone by all the casters.



So it occurred to me that I should crack out Book of Nine Swords and put together some sort of martial adept. However I still want to be an archer- and while I have experience with a lot of stuff (if rather rusty), making archers from predominantly melee style characters is not something I've ever really done before.

Which is basically where you come in. I need help- and I know I need help. So any suggestions, build ideas, or that sort of thing would really be appreciated.



Right now I'm looking at basically two options- based on what I've gleaned from old and abandoned threads and handbooks.


1. Some sort of warblade archer, which I hear can be very good and interesting.

2. An Arcan- *dodges rocks* Excuse me for a moment. *casts Globe of Silence on the hecklers* As I was saying, an Arcane Swordsage archer. I already have DM permission for the Arcane Swordsage, so that's not an issue. Moreover, I doubt the game will last to level 20- and even if it does I'll probably take a PrC or several, so trying to work out that dual boost use + spells is never going to be an issue.



Right now I'm partial to the idea of the arcane swordsage archer, as it's more flashy than the straight up warblade, but I could do either. Alternatively, if anyone has a great idea for a sniper build, I might be interested in that too.


Acceptable sources are pretty much everything 3.5, no pathfinder or 3.0, but particularly well known or egrarious suggestions will probably be subject to DM approval. Otherwise, go wild.

[Jackinthegreen]

Is Dragon Magazine available?  There's a fighter variant called the Targetteer in Dragon 310 which gets an improved version of Rapid Shot, plus Dex to damage on ranged attacks.  These can be taken in place of the normal fighter feats, which means for two levels it's well worth it.  That issue is 3.5 by the way.

[Unbeliever]

I think Carnivore had a pretty solid Arcane Archer build in some thread or another.  What level of OP are you looking for?  I conjecture that it's probably reasonably solid, but nothing too high.

My general suggestions for an archer have nothing to do with ToB. 

1.  Swift Hunter -- this is a great, solid build that works pretty much all the way through.  You get some scouting skill monkeyness combined with being both highly mobile and highly lethal. 

2.  Artificer or Archivist Archer?  You were talking about looking for a little bit of flash and talking about doing some spellcasting.  The trick here is to take advantage of Ranger spells and the like (see Champions of Ruin for some great ones) to become a total badass archer.  Really I'd think about this as a refinement on the quite good cleric archer approach.

Arcane Swordsage is broken.  So, really, you can't do too bad with it.  But, frankly, ToB doesn't really synergize well with archery.  At most, you'll find yourself mostly using your maneuvers for boosts or defenses, which isn't terrible, but you'll have to be getting most of your archery oomph from something else.  The most ToB-friendly ranged character is a Bloodstorm Blade. 

[Kerrus]

Yeah, I used to talk with Carnivore occasionally back in the day, but he seems to have dropped off the grid. The Archivist build sounds pretty interesting actually, and I think I could work it into the theme alright.

What sort of build structure should I look for? Straight archivist? Or some multiclassing/prestige classes?

[Unbeliever]

Yeah, I used to talk with Carnivore occasionally back in the day, but he seems to have dropped off the grid. The Archivist build sounds pretty interesting actually, and I think I could work it into the theme alright.

What sort of build structure should I look for? Straight archivist? Or some multiclassing/prestige classes?

I'd check out some of the cleric archer threads/handbooks.  I haven't given it a ton of thought -- though this has kind of inspired me to do so -- but off the top of my head. 

A straight Archivist with just a dip to nab some Turn Undead for DMM(Persist) will be damn tough.  Persistent Divine Power gives you the BAB you want, and the higher level Archivist class abilities are crazy good.  The stun one is what I'm really thinking of.  Besides that, any other full casting or nearly full casting PrC works just fine.  It's all gravy, really.  The other option that occurs to me is to use the divine adaptation on Anima Mage. 

[sirpercival]

Is homebrew allowed? You could make a pretty damn good archer by using Sniper.

There's very little ranged combat stuff in ToB, but there are a ton of homebrew ranged disciplines.

Anyway, go Arcane Swordsage.  It's boss.

[muktidata]

Cloistered Cleric offers your skills if you're interested and with DMM persist you can get some helpful 24/hr buffs. Shooting Star Mystic Ranger could be fun. There's a mini-handbook for that, too (basically you're a ranger that casts Wizard spells). Soulbow is another option and there are no shortage of those builds around. Google -> 3.5 Archery Handbook (and similar searches) should yield some good stuff.

[Kerrus]

Alright, so I've managed to get some more details out of the DM. Dragon material is allowed- but not if it's too cheesy. So Targeter yes, Erudite no. We're using 28 point buy, and I've been looking for any archivist archer builds but I haven't seen much. That being said I did find some neat options- specifically, the Uurkrau Illumian. Keying extra spells off of dex eliminates some of the MAD, although the Archivst Archer is still dex/int. Currently figuring out which points to put up- although it'll probably be something like 16 in int/dex, and a 12 in cha if I can manage it.


This game starts at level 3, so I'm currently weighing if it's better to start as the archivist for two levels and then dip cloistered cleric, or start with a single level of cloistered cleric and then swap over to Archivist.



Since this is eberron and I need a way to get a bow of some sort as a weapon, I'm thinking that the religion should be the Silver Flame. They have longbow as a favored weapon, which fits- and their theme is eradicating evil, which fits (IMO) with the archivist thema.

One good reason to take the first level as cloistered cleric is because they have higher starting skill points than the archivist- @ 6+, rather than the Archivist's 4+.


With that in mind, something like Cloistered Cleric (Silver Flame) 1/Archivist 2 will be my starting build.

The cleric gets longbow proficiency and focus from the cleric, saving me some feats that I can put towards grabbing point blank shot at first level and precise shot at 3rd so I can shoot into melee.

[phaedrusxy]

Honestly starting out at level 3, you're going to be better off with the Mystic Ranger with the Sword of the Arcane Order feat for quite some time, IMO. There is even a mini-guide on the boards in the handbooks section on this combination. I'd suggest reading about it before you do too much work building your character.

[Kerrus]

*Shrug* Eh, maybe.

[Kerrus]

Alright, I'll bite. It looks pretty interesting- I'll see what I can put together.



EDIT: Whaaaaaat? Apparently one of the other players has convinced the DM to allow some sort of third party feat called 'lost tradition' that lets his wizard change his primary casting stat from intelligence to literally any other score- he chose STR.

This is incredibly ridiculous, but I'm going to see if I can get in on this action and change the wizard spell casting stat to dex. Maybe throw in being an Illumian to further reduce MAD.

Thoughts?

[kurashu]

Alright, I'll bite. It looks pretty interesting- I'll see what I can put together.



EDIT: Whaaaaaat? Apparently one of the other players has convinced the DM to allow some sort of third party feat called 'lost tradition' that lets his wizard change his primary casting stat from intelligence to literally any other score- he chose STR.

This is incredibly ridiculous, but I'm going to see if I can get in on this action and change the wizard spell casting stat to dex. Maybe throw in being an Illumian to further reduce MAD.

Thoughts?

Quick research indicates that it switches everything to a single stat -- DCs, bonus spells, what level you can cast. Everything. Instant

[Kerrus]

Everything? Goddamn.

Okay, so new plan. Lost tradition, switch everything to dex.  I've got a cool backstory written up that should sway the DM (it's better than the str wizard's )

So right now I'm wondering when I should take the first level of wizard for the spellbook access. I can't get SotAO until level 4 at least- higher if I take a level of wizard, so for now I'm thinking three levels of mystic ranger to start off with- then a fourth, and then after the fourth swap into wizard for a level and then see about a prc- Abjurant Champion maybe? I'd qualify easy- with lost tradition (so cheesy!) I have no need to be Illumian, so I'll swap back to base human.

Start off as three levels in mystic ranger, take point blank shot and precise shot as my feats for level 1, and then grab combat casting at 3. I need BAB +5 to get into Abjurant champion, so the earliest I can enter it is at 6 with a straight mystic ranger. With that in mind, I could bump Combat Casting up to 6, and take level 6 in Wizard (or take wizard beforehand, like at level 5 maybe), and then go into Abcha.


Stay in Abcha for all five levels  and then find something else that advances spellcasting.


Thoughts?

[Esgath]

Your DM is aware, how easy it is to boost strength? Polymorph, Bite of the Werebear... 

[Kerrus]

No idea. I don't think he's ever played in a high level game. But in general the players are not serious optimizers. They're smart, but the strength wizard seems to be more a concept enabling thing than a 'and then my strength is 500 and I eat the sun' thing.



Anyways, I'm wondering if I should consider arcane archer as an option? We're going under the assumption that SotAO wizard spells are still arcane, and a two level dip into arcane archer would be solid- especially as a precursor to five levels of Abjurant Champion.


So right now we're looking at something like Wood Elf Mystic Archer 5/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 2/Abjurant Champion 4 - and then from there back into mystic archer or into another class.

Thoughts?

[brujon]

No idea. I don't think he's ever played in a high level game. But in general the players are not serious optimizers. They're smart, but the strength wizard seems to be more a concept enabling thing than a 'and then my strength is 500 and I eat the sun' thing.



Anyways, I'm wondering if I should consider arcane archer as an option? We're going under the assumption that SotAO wizard spells are still arcane, and a two level dip into arcane archer would be solid- especially as a precursor to five levels of Abjurant Champion.


So right now we're looking at something like Wood Elf Mystic Archer 5/Abjurant Champion 1/Arcane Archer 2/Abjurant Champion 4 - and then from there back into mystic archer or into another class.

Thoughts?

Never let your friend hear of Cancer Mage. Near infinite strenght...

[Kerrus]

Oh, I know full well about those shennanigans.

[Kerrus]

Well I did some planning and it turns out that I can't make abjurant champion before 10. While advancing spellcasting is certainly cool, I'm looking at the archer side of things more- so I'm thinking a couple levels in deepwood sniper as a precursor to arcane archer to buff the shooty side of things. With only fifth level spells losing out on four levels isn't terrible. I may actually avoid arcane archer entirely, and just focus on the self-buffing if I can find something else I can get into that advances BAB and casting- looking at options in the original archery handbook back on WotC (which has material not in the BG version or the one on these boards, albeit not much)

[xzyx]

Alright, I'll bite. It looks pretty interesting- I'll see what I can put together.



EDIT: Whaaaaaat? Apparently one of the other players has convinced the DM to allow some sort of third party feat called 'lost tradition' that lets his wizard change his primary casting stat from intelligence to literally any other score- he chose STR.

This is incredibly ridiculous, but I'm going to see if I can get in on this action and change the wizard spell casting stat to dex. Maybe throw in being an Illumian to further reduce MAD.

Thoughts?

Quick research indicates that it switches everything to a single stat -- DCs, bonus spells, what level you can cast. Everything. Instant

A bit off topic, but I always wanted to make a wizard (or a gish) one day with lost tradition keyed to strength and 10 levels of "War Hulk", from the miniatures handbook as it gets +2 strength each level. COmbine that with some other more traditional way of boosting your strength and you've got the highest DCs in the animal kingdom.