3.5 Character build help requested

[xzyx]

Hello members of the minmax boards, I'd like your help. I am going to start DMing a campaign for some friends, but I've run into unknown territory: I might need to build a class. But before talking about that, I'll post the basics:

The scenario is custom made, but based of Eberron (a bit more Fallout-like eberron). The only house rules I'm using is pathfinder skill system and I'm using pathfinder classes instead of regular 3.5 ones (and please correct me if I'm making a big mistake! I just generally like them more, except the druid), but I'm not allowing pathfinder-specific classes.

I'm allowing any books except dragon megazines and the campaign will be with medium optimization I'm predicting (I think I'll have some tier 3s and 4s and maybe someone gets a 2). They'll start at 7 and hopefully go up to 18th like.

I won't go into details to keep the post short enough, but one of my players kind of sucks at finding stuff in the books so I'm making his character. He's also Charon, the ferryman of Hell, but he is not evil, and he'll kind of be a "mastermind", plotting behind the others backs and eventually might be leading a revolution, in hell.

Anyway, I wanted to give him a gish-like character but with an emphasis on subtle enchantment abilities, some telekinesis and some kensai-like ability to improve his weapon (an oar that is sharp like a greatsword) naturally as he levels. And, as I recognize those skills alone won't really make him shine, I'd like some way for him to be good at battle (the player can probably handle any of the usual major roles easily enough).

I was considering either making him a duskblade with crazy prestige classes (I can tweak them and their pre-requisites at will as I'm the DM) or making him a unique class which he'll take 20 levels of, with some kind of unique spellcasting like the Warlock or Binder have. And I'm not contemplating making him a psionic because I'm not sure he'd play so well with it, and I myself ain't familiar with them.

Ok, I know I'm not giving enough information but the idea isn't 100% nurtured yet and I'll accept any suggestions ^^

[Solo]

If Psionics is out, you could make a gish such as Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8. A bard may do as well, if you're ok with singing and dancing.

[sirpercival]

You could try a Nullblade or Thaumurai.

[xzyx]

If Psionics is out, you could make a gish such as Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8. A bard may do as well, if you're ok with singing and dancing.

Psionic is not necessarily out. I'd just have to learn how to use the system, so I'll consider other stuff first.

I think the Thaumurai is great, but not exactly the fluff I'm lookig for (and it kind of looks too much like a paladin). I really enjoyed the nullblade, but I think it is a bit stronger than I believe my players will be... I'm considering toning it down a bit, and, if I feel my players need more powah I'll let him use the original one.

Does anyone has any idea which abilities charon would have?

Also, one of my players wanted a feat that doubled his shield AC (he saw it somewhere and lost it). I supposed figters are generally sub-par anyway so it isn't too much if I homebrew him the feat, but I'm not sure on requirements. What do you people think? (I was considering something like BAB 12)

[phaedrusxy]

The Ancestral Relic feat can take care of progressing his weapon in a Kensai-like fashion. So that doesn't have to be part of the class.

So now we need a "gish-like" class with a focus on "subtle enchantment" and "telekinesis". Maybe a beguiler? Can they get Telekinesis in any way? I'm sure you could pick it up via a PrC, feat (chain?), or magic item.

If you're not opposed to homebrew, I actually think Conduit of the Lower Planes sounds very close to what you want, with the right sphere selection. These two spheres I homebrewed would get him most of the powers he wants, I bet.

If you want to avoid the sorcerer casting capstone of that class, I can understand that. It doesn't seem to fit thematically with the rest. You might try the Sphere warlock instead.

[xzyx]

The Ancestral Relic feat can take care of progressing his weapon in a Kensai-like fashion. So that doesn't have to be part of the class.

So now we need a "gish-like" class with a focus on "subtle enchantment" and "telekinesis". Maybe a beguiler? Can they get Telekinesis in any way? I'm sure you could pick it up via a PrC, feat (chain?), or magic item.

If you're not opposed to homebrew, I actually think Conduit of the Lower Planes sounds very close to what you want, with the right sphere selection. These two spheres I homebrewed would get him most of the powers he wants, I bet.

If you want to avoid the sorcerer casting capstone of that class, I can understand that. It doesn't seem to fit thematically with the rest. You might try the Sphere warlock instead.

No problems with homebrew, and thanks for the feedback ^^

I quite enjoyed the Conduit of the Lower Planes, and it's the right fluff. I didn't like the spheres so much tough. Yours are fine, but the ones in D&D wiki... I mean, the cold sphere has cone of cold 7 times a day at level 1! it's just too much!

Right now I'm making my own homebrew combining the features I liked the most from Conduit of the Lower Planes and Nullblade. I'll post it when it is ready, so you people can criticize it

[xzyx]

It is done!

I made it on D&D wiki.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charon_(3.5e_Class)#Class_Features

What do you people think? Is it too bad/too good?

[phaedrusxy]

The Ancestral Relic feat can take care of progressing his weapon in a Kensai-like fashion. So that doesn't have to be part of the class.

So now we need a "gish-like" class with a focus on "subtle enchantment" and "telekinesis". Maybe a beguiler? Can they get Telekinesis in any way? I'm sure you could pick it up via a PrC, feat (chain?), or magic item.

If you're not opposed to homebrew, I actually think Conduit of the Lower Planes sounds very close to what you want, with the right sphere selection. These two spheres I homebrewed would get him most of the powers he wants, I bet.

If you want to avoid the sorcerer casting capstone of that class, I can understand that. It doesn't seem to fit thematically with the rest. You might try the Sphere warlock instead.

No problems with homebrew, and thanks for the feedback ^^

I quite enjoyed the Conduit of the Lower Planes, and it's the right fluff. I didn't like the spheres so much tough. Yours are fine, but the ones in D&D wiki... I mean, the cold sphere has cone of cold 7 times a day at level 1! it's just too much!

That's because spell levels in D&D are all completely screwed up because the designers just ported the levels in wholesale from earlier editions, when blasting things was actually a viable tactic. In 2nd edition, Fireball was actually a powerful spell. In 3rd, it isn't even near the top of the heap for its level. Cone of Cold is even worse. It is seriously more appropriate at 1st level than 5th. Fireball has a lot better range, comparable area, and is two levels lower, and it isn't even a good use of a 3rd level spellslot the majority of the time.. 

It is done!

I made it on D&D wiki.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charon_(3.5e_Class)#Class_Features

What do you people think? Is it too bad/too good?

Your table for spell levels is messed up, and I don't really know how the casting is supposed to work. You say "as a wizard", but he has spells known from spheres? What does that mean? He has to prepare them, but can only know the ones in his spheres? How many spheres does he have access to? All four of those? Or he gains them over time?

It looks like he gains them over time, from the table. You have Sphere listed 7 times in the table, though, but only four spheres accessible to the class.

Actually, I think for Charon, the Void abilities make sense, as the Styx has the power of erasing your memories and all that, plus gaining some magical powers makes sense as well. It's kind of an interesting. mash-up. I'd have left the spheres as-is, but I could see how some might see that as overpowered. The sphere warlock is kind of similar to this class you've made though, and gets full level sphere access. Anyway, hope your player likes it.

[phaedrusxy]

I just remembered this prestige class, although I doubt it is what you're looking for. It might give you some ideas for class features, though.

If I were doing this, I'd make this a more "generic" class, not a specific character. I'd probably take some of the things from Nullblade, because the whole void/nullifying thing seems like it fits somewhat with the powers and fluff of the River Styx, but not completely. I'd add in some abilities about navigating and swimming, immunity to the effects of the River Styx at low levels, and at higher levels let this increase to total immunity to Mind Affecting things. Maybe add in some of the stuff from the Boatman of the Styx about bottling your tears and using them as a weapon that drains memories and/or stuns people or something.

I also had an idea that some of the powers of the Mindstealer Drone might be fitting, as the Styx is supposed to absorb the memories it trains, and supposedly they're still there to be accessed by someone who knows how (and who else might but Charon?). Negative levels and energy also seem fitting, as Charon is typically portrayed as being skeletal.

So, maybe something like this overall:

Take the Nullblade class, change the Void Strike to be negative energy. Give Ancestral Relic as a bonus feat, and specify that it is a Nullcraft weapon (see Nullblade items). Modify the Invocation list to include things like Modify Memory, Mind Wipe, etc, that have to do with erasing someone's memory.

At X level (maybe 7th), have each of the boatman's (or whatever you name it) attacks with his oar deal a negative level, and give the boatman the ability to absorb the memories of those he deals negative levels to, as the Mindstealer Drone ability. Let this increase in potency, at first gaining only skill ranks, then feats, and then spells or spell-like abilities, much like the Spellthief.

In fact... maybe Spellthief is a better chassis for this whole thing in the first place! Hell yes, it is! Use the one that gets bardic spellcasting, and it's almost perfect "out of the box", in fact, if you just add on the Ancestral Relic thing, and maybe something about negative energy damage/energy drain, and stealing memories (skills, memories, and feats, the class already steals spells and spell-like abilities).

Anyway, just some ideas that popped into my head. I kind of like the idea of coming up with a Boatman of the Styx base class and thought I'd throw some of this out there.

[xzyx]

That's because spell levels in D&D are all completely screwed up because the designers just ported the levels in wholesale from earlier editions, when blasting things was actually a viable tactic. In 2nd edition, Fireball was actually a powerful spell. In 3rd, it isn't even near the top of the heap for its level. Cone of Cold is even worse. It is seriously more appropriate at 1st level than 5th. Fireball has a lot better range, comparable area, and is two levels lower, and it isn't even a good use of a 3rd level spellslot the majority of the time.. 



Your table for spell levels is messed up, and I don't really know how the casting is supposed to work. You say "as a wizard", but he has spells known from spheres? What does that mean? He has to prepare them, but can only know the ones in his spheres? How many spheres does he have access to? All four of those? Or he gains them over time?

It looks like he gains them over time, from the table. You have Sphere listed 7 times in the table, though, but only four spheres accessible to the class.

Actually, I think for Charon, the Void abilities make sense, as the Styx has the power of erasing your memories and all that, plus gaining some magical powers makes sense as well. It's kind of an interesting. mash-up. I'd have left the spheres as-is, but I could see how some might see that as overpowered. The sphere warlock is kind of similar to this class you've made though, and gets full level sphere access. Anyway, hope your player likes it.

I'm still mastering D&D wiki posting, so it is a bit messed up, indeed. I'll fix it as I keep making small adjustments to the class.



What you say about blasting spells being bad makes a lot of sense; however, my players are a tidbit conservative on that point and I'm afraid of changing a big aspect of the game like that. I'd rather keep things as they are. (The campaign is already quite crazy, I don't want to introduce even more experimentation). At any rate, he told me he doesn't want to blast anyway so it is irrelevant if cone of cold is 1st or 4th level to him, as I won't make it available.

About the spheres things: I'm still making more spheres, that is why there are only 4 available. When I said "it is done" I meant the overall arch of the class. I am not using the traditional sphere system, but rather using them as "arcane domains". Instead of a spell list, Charon will choose such domains and get spell presets. I chose to do so because it is easier to understand "Domains" than explaining a whole new casting system to a moderately conservative player.

When I said "casting like a wizard" I meant he gets new spell levels at the same levels a wizard does, and has to prepare them like a wizard does. I'm sorry the wording is unclear, I had it better written but my player complained from "too much text" and I feared he wouldn't learn how to play with the class due to excessive wording.

I just remembered this prestige class, although I doubt it is what you're looking for. It might give you some ideas for class features, though.

If I were doing this, I'd make this a more "generic" class, not a specific character. I'd probably take some of the things from Nullblade, because the whole void/nullifying thing seems like it fits somewhat with the powers and fluff of the River Styx, but not completely. I'd add in some abilities about navigating and swimming, immunity to the effects of the River Styx at low levels, and at higher levels let this increase to total immunity to Mind Affecting things. Maybe add in some of the stuff from the Boatman of the Styx about bottling your tears and using them as a weapon that drains memories and/or stuns people or something.

I also had an idea that some of the powers of the Mindstealer Drone might be fitting, as the Styx is supposed to absorb the memories it trains, and supposedly they're still there to be accessed by someone who knows how (and who else might but Charon?). Negative levels and energy also seem fitting, as Charon is typically portrayed as being skeletal.

So, maybe something like this overall:

Take the Nullblade class, change the Void Strike to be negative energy. Give Ancestral Relic as a bonus feat, and specify that it is a Nullcraft weapon (see Nullblade items). Modify the Invocation list to include things like Modify Memory, Mind Wipe, etc, that have to do with erasing someone's memory.

At X level (maybe 7th), have each of the boatman's (or whatever you name it) attacks with his oar deal a negative level, and give the boatman the ability to absorb the memories of those he deals negative levels to, as the Mindstealer Drone ability. Let this increase in potency, at first gaining only skill ranks, then feats, and then spells or spell-like abilities, much like the Spellthief.

In fact... maybe Spellthief is a better chassis for this whole thing in the first place! Hell yes, it is! Use the one that gets bardic spellcasting, and it's almost perfect "out of the box", in fact, if you just add on the Ancestral Relic thing, and maybe something about negative energy damage/energy drain, and stealing memories (skills, memories, and feats, the class already steals spells and spell-like abilities).

Anyway, just some ideas that popped into my head. I kind of like the idea of coming up with a Boatman of the Styx base class and thought I'd throw some of this out there.

That is genius!  It is the fix I was looking for: how to make it have "something to do" while keeping the fluff, keeping it simple and not going too far from official material! I'll implement it as soon as possible!

Thanks for the feedback, and keep it coming! Tomorrow I'll finish wrapping up the class. ^^

[phaedrusxy]

OK, so here's what I would suggest, summarizing:

Take the spellthief, but change the sneak attack dice to just extra negative energy damage. Let it always apply, rather than requiring flanking and all that, but perhaps only through the "oar".

Give it ancestral relic, with the oar, and if you're really that into the oar being able to change into all kinds of stuff, just give it the Morphing property.

Give it the spell progression of a bard, instead of what it has now (up to 6th level known, etc).

Add in some abilities about navigating in a boat, swimming, and planar travel.

Add in the ability to steal memories when it damages someone with its negative energy strike, at first gaining only random memories the subject has, then temporary skill points, feats, etc. If it kills them, let it drain all of the subject's memories. This will be on top of the steal spells and SLAs abilities the class already has.

You could upgrade its negative energy damage to deal actual negative levels at some point, but heck he could just add one of the properties like that to his weapon via ancestral relic, also.

You might consider giving the character some undead traits as it progresses (especially immunity to anything that affects its memories at first, then all mind-affecting later), and maybe giving it the lich template as a capstone, or something.

I think that pretty much covers it all.

Edit: I liked the idea, and couldn't sleep anyway. So I wrote it up here. Feel free to modify it however you want and/or suggest tweaks.

[xzyx]

OK, so here's what I would suggest, summarizing:

Take the spellthief, but change the sneak attack dice to just extra negative energy damage. Let it always apply, rather than requiring flanking and all that, but perhaps only through the "oar".

Give it ancestral relic, with the oar, and if you're really that into the oar being able to change into all kinds of stuff, just give it the Morphing property.

Give it the spell progression of a bard, instead of what it has now (up to 6th level known, etc).

Add in some abilities about navigating in a boat, swimming, and planar travel.

Add in the ability to steal memories when it damages someone with its negative energy strike, at first gaining only random memories the subject has, then temporary skill points, feats, etc. If it kills them, let it drain all of the subject's memories. This will be on top of the steal spells and SLAs abilities the class already has.

You could upgrade its negative energy damage to deal actual negative levels at some point, but heck he could just add one of the properties like that to his weapon via ancestral relic, also.

You might consider giving the character some undead traits as it progresses (especially immunity to anything that affects its memories at first, then all mind-affecting later), and maybe giving it the lich template as a capstone, or something.

I think that pretty much covers it all.

Edit: I liked the idea, and couldn't sleep anyway. So I wrote it up here. Feel free to modify it however you want and/or suggest tweaks.

I am seriously considering using that class... You're a good homebrewer ^^ (I'll just wait to see if you'll make more changes in it).

Now, for suggestions: Maybe it could have a Channel Spell ability like the Duskblade 3, so he'll have an incentive to go into toe-to-toe combat every once in a while. (the channel energy is great, but I don't see it as being enough to make him get close to a big guy as he has only d6s and light armor).

And maybe he could use something to boost his defenses? Like being able to make his enemies forget him, get some way to have nearly constant concealment or something like that. (I am not sure about this, its just something that came to mind).Or maybe some dimension doors/hops every once in a while.

[phaedrusxy]

I am seriously considering using that class... You're a good homebrewer ^^ (I'll just wait to see if you'll make more changes in it).

Glad you like it. I think I'm pretty much done now.

Now, for suggestions: Maybe it could have a Channel Spell ability like the Duskblade 3, so he'll have an incentive to go into toe-to-toe combat every once in a while. (the channel energy is great, but I don't see it as being enough to make him get close to a big guy as he has only d6s and light armor).

And maybe he could use something to boost his defenses? Like being able to make his enemies forget him, get some way to have nearly constant concealment or something like that. (I am not sure about this, its just something that came to mind).Or maybe some dimension doors/hops every once in a while.

He gets up to 6th level spells from two amazing lists. If he wants to do that stuff, I'd say he should take a spell for it. He is also a charisma-based class and has Use Magic Device as a class skill. So even if it isn't on his list, he can get a wand or whatever for it.

Light armor doesn't really mean anything, as most of my characters that could wear heavier armor don't. It's not worth the penalties that come with it, and you can get your AC as high without it, especially if you can use the Chahar-Aina and Dastana from Oriental Adventures. He can cast False Life, Mirror Image, Blur, and a host of other amazing defensive spells to more than compensate for those things. I guess I could bump the hit dice up to d8. I did consider that, but thought with all this class had going boosting its hit dice might not be warranted. Really, it doesn't matter much as most of your hit points typically come from Constitution, anyway.

Edit: I upped the hd to d8.