The Ethics of Summoning

[Libertad]

The use of summoning monsters for dangerous tasks is admittedly pretty skeevy, especially when it's involuntary (through Planar Binding) or using them as trap-fodder.

Think of it from the monster's perspective: you're doing whatever it is that Outsiders do on your home plane, when suddenly a magical force takes you to the Material Plane.  Often without significant time to gain your bearings, you are obliged to serve a spellcaster for a limited length of time.

Given that many D&D supplements throughout editions define the practice of slavery as evil, how would this apply to Planar Binding unwilling monsters?

Are celestial monsters summoned by good spellcasters willing to be summoned and waiting around to fight for justice on the Material Plane?

Do spellcasters seeking to avoid extraplanar retribution write up a contract or terms of agreement regarding service ahead of time?

I want to hear your thoughts on the matter!

[Prime32]

I'm pretty sure that summoned (as opposed to called) monsters aren't "real" unless you use a variant rule.

Though the idea of creating a sentient warrior that dies after 2 minutes still raises ethical questions...

You could try handling it like a Shadow Clone, where you create a copy of a monster that transfers its memories to the original when it vanishes.

[veekie]

My personal interpretation always was that summon spells work as they do because the summoner creates a temporary mystical construct, which is then occupied by some of the awareness and nature of the summoned being, which is contracted to be available in exchange for immaterial benefits.

It is why the spell is of such short duration, and why any remains vanish, it never was the creature at all, just a bit of magic using that creature as a template, and controlled by a mixture of its awareness and the magic embedded in it's form. It is why Augment Summoning and similar effects can modify summons dramatically.

So it is not really an ethical question, as the entity is only fractionally present, and at some point had given up enough of its identity for a spell template to be formed for it's summoning. When the summoning is over, it obtains the memory of the summon, but never experiences the actual moment.

[Arturick]

The rules state that a summoned monster who is killed doesn't "die," but they need 24 hours to reform on their native plane.  That contradicts the notion that you are creating something from scratch.

My good aligned summoners tend to think that they are summoning creatures who would, by their nature, support the struggle against evil.  That aside, they still try to do nice things for said creatures, like summoning a Celestial Bear outside of combat and giving it a steak or something.

[Libertad]

My personal interpretation always was that summon spells work as they do because the summoner creates a temporary mystical construct, which is then occupied by some of the awareness and nature of the summoned being, which is contracted to be available in exchange for immaterial benefits.

It is why the spell is of such short duration, and why any remains vanish, it never was the creature at all, just a bit of magic using that creature as a template, and controlled by a mixture of its awareness and the magic embedded in it's form. It is why Augment Summoning and similar effects can modify summons dramatically.

So it is not really an ethical question, as the entity is only fractionally present, and at some point had given up enough of its identity for a spell template to be formed for it's summoning. When the summoning is over, it obtains the memory of the summon, but never experiences the actual moment.

Okay, then what about (Calling) spells like Planar Binding?

[kitep]

The rules state that a summoned monster who is killed doesn't "die," but they need 24 hours to reform on their native plane.  That contradicts the notion that you are creating something from scratch.

Where's this from?

[Arturick]

Per the SRD:  "A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again."

So, if you're making a critter from scratch every time, it doesn't make sense to have a 24 cool down for a particular critter.

[kitep]

Thanks.  I never knew about the 24 hour reform time.  Fortunately, we don't play with the "summon same creature" option, or else we could be in trouble.

[veekie]

My personal interpretation always was that summon spells work as they do because the summoner creates a temporary mystical construct, which is then occupied by some of the awareness and nature of the summoned being, which is contracted to be available in exchange for immaterial benefits.

It is why the spell is of such short duration, and why any remains vanish, it never was the creature at all, just a bit of magic using that creature as a template, and controlled by a mixture of its awareness and the magic embedded in it's form. It is why Augment Summoning and similar effects can modify summons dramatically.

So it is not really an ethical question, as the entity is only fractionally present, and at some point had given up enough of its identity for a spell template to be formed for it's summoning. When the summoning is over, it obtains the memory of the summon, but never experiences the actual moment.

Okay, then what about (Calling) spells like Planar Binding?

Those get you the actual creature, which is why you need to bargain or otherwise obtain its cooperation. Abuse is real, though some of them may have their own reforming abilities separate from the spell.

The main reasons I use this model is simple:
-Augment Summoning gets a stronger creature, does it mean you have to get a beefier monster to summon?
-1d3 and 1d4+1 summons. If you are summoning specific creatures, then that is an awful lot of uncertainty about what you're getting. Empower? Maximize
-Greenbound and Alienist summoning how?
-Mechanically theres no significance to the death of the summoned creature as you already have multiples in stock, as evidenced by the ability to summon an arbitrary number of them.

[Keldar]

Per the SRD:  "A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again."

So, if you're making a critter from scratch every time, it doesn't make sense to have a 24 cool down for a particular critter.

That comes from a variant rule, and is not a default assumption of the base summoning system.  In that system, summoned creatures just as easily occupy the same position as Paladin warhorses for heroic characters.  (Villains need not give a damn.)

[Arturick]

That comes from a variant rule, and is not a default assumption of the base summoning system.  In that system, summoned creatures just as easily occupy the same position as Paladin warhorses for heroic characters.  (Villains need not give a damn.)

With all due respect, bullshit.  My quote was taken from the Summoning Subschool description under the official rules for the Conjuration school.  The section right before it describes the Healing Subschool, so I suppose Healing is a variant rule in your games?

[Keldar]

Ok, so they used boilerplate text.  I found that first in the DMG's optional rules.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

(assumes lawful evil neutral persona)

Aww c'mon Libertad ... Magic isn't Slavery.
Of course you know that.  Magic is Freedom !!
Just 'cuz I wanna use some fop from Avernus
as cannon fodder, doesn't mean that is somehow
not its purpose in life / afterlife.
I take 'em.  I shake n bake them.  They go home sad.
That's the way it goes.

Now if you're one of those whiny Chaotic Good for nothings ...
maybe you want to talk a Devil out of his deviltry
right before you have it get the box of soap bubbles
down from the barn, so's you don't have to freeze your
tootsies.  I'm sure that devil would find the whole thing
funny as hell ... I mean funny as Phlegethos.  Can you
imagine it telling a Styx Devil about that?  They'd be
laughing all about the place, saying that's why we save
them CG-ers for last.  Ahh ha ha ha 

[Unbeliever]

1.  Actual ethics have virtually no place in D&D and probably not in violent fantasy to begin with.  They get in the way of the game -- the fun bits -- and also the descriptions of the world(s) are too unstable to really yield meaningful discussion. 

For example, are Orcs inherently evil savage beasts hellbent on destruction and corruption (Tolkien), inherently savage beasts hellbent on destruction due to their natures and for the shits and giggles of it (Warhammer 40k), or just bigger greener nastier people (occasionally D&D).  All of these lead to different ethical considerations. 

And, it's hard to play a mass murderer (any D&D character) while considering actual ethics. 

2.  Demons, et al. are, however, inherently evil.  They spend every minute of every day either doing or plotting evil.  So, appropriating them for even a few minutes on end is doing the universe a favor, assuming you're a good guy.  An evil one wouldn't mind that summoning was slavery anyway.  That's 5 minutes less -- perhaps more if there's recuperation time -- of evil being produced.  Even if the demon dies, that's a net benefit as well.  I mean, would your character have had any qualms about killing that demon outright in the first place? 

Conversely, celestial beings want to do good with every fiber of their being.  They have no greater purpose.  So, if you're a good guy -- e.g., a Lawful Good Cleric -- then presumably you are summoning the celestial creature to do good things.  Therefore, it's happy to help.  QED. 

You could make a similar argument with Animals and Elementals, probably, as they are committed to helping out the Druid with the Druid's causes -- whether for good or for ill. 

[bloodtide]

I have never liked 3X spin on Summoning.  The whole copy/not dead reforms/no harm no foul thing in the summoning rules is modern gaming at it's worst(with things like 'all your equipment changes shape with you' and 'Drow items are not effected by sunlight').

I have always had Summoning spells bring real creatures.  And though the magic does enslave the summoned creature, it's not exactly slavery.  In Ye Old Days, the summoning spell would wander the planes and snatch up a poor helpless creature.  But sometimes a spell would get an important creature, often at bad times.  So something was done about that.  The solution was simple enough: waiting rooms were created.

Each race, culture and group soon created such waiting rooms.  Lawful creatures put their law breakers in the waiting room, chaotic creatures tossed folk in at random and both good and evil pick creatures to further their ethos.  And that is how things are today.

The idea fits nicely with the idea that outsiders and such, can't enter the Prime Plane at will.  So they were willing to accept Summoning as a way to get in, with native Primes help.