Author Topic: ideas for streamlining summoning?  (Read 3345 times)

Offline Unbeliever

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ideas for streamlining summoning?
« on: November 27, 2012, 04:09:09 PM »
I'm considering playing something like a Malconvoker in an upcoming game (well, vacillating between that and a Mystic Ranger Swift Hunter).  I'm curious if people have any good ways to streamline summoning.  I would prefer to avoid statting up dozens of different monsters to summon over the course of my levels.  But, I also don't want to bleed out the most interesting parts of playing a summoner.  Psionics (and Trailblazer and maybe Pathfinder) take the "build your own monster" route, but I find that leads to less unique creatures than pure summoning does. 

My current idea was to stat up about 4 monsters, each with different roles.  And, then I would apply a penalty to them if I didn't use my highest spell levels to summon them.  So, I'd summon an X with Summon Monster 4, but if I used a Summon Monster 3 slot then I'd inflict 2 negative levels on it or something.

Anyone have any ideas?  I could maybe avoid a lot of the issue by just using Versatile Spellcaster and try and always use my highest level slots for summoning. 

Also, if anyone has any ideas of how to streamline them during gameplay, I'm open to suggestions, but, again, I don't want to take away what is the most fun parts of playing a summoner. 

Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: ideas for streamlining summoning?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 04:48:59 PM »
What exactly is the problem that you're trying to solve?  Is it that you don't want to be digging through books at the table looking for the perfect monster, is it that you're worried that having so many options would overshadow the other players, is it that you're not really sure what all the summons are good for, is it that actually juggling all the stat blocks and actions in play is difficult, something else?

Assuming your issue is organization and time at the table, my usual approach when playing a summoner is to look through the monster books ahead of time for all the possible summons I can use (which isn't an insurmountable task, since it's usually a demon summoner or fire summoner or something, not just a generic summoner).  I break them into two groups, combat (meaning I need the whole stat block) and downtime (meaning I only need their special abilities), and further split each of those into immediate use (meaning in combat with me or doing utility stuff nearby) or remote use (meaning I send them to teleport-skirmish someone, scout, etc.).  I make four files, one for each group, and copy down all of the necessary monster stats in a compact format sorted by which spell can summon them, with a note at the top as to the monster's main use and a book and page citation for the full stat block in case it's needed.

Skimming through all the books noting down which monsters you might use and which group they go into usually takes just a few hours depending on how narrow the theme is, faster if you have searchable PDFs of the books.  Once the process is done, you have everything right there at your fingertips, and it can usually fit on four to eight double-sided pieces of paper depending on number of monsters and formatting; we use laptops at the table so I don't even need to print them out and can ctrl-F for good monsters.

Assuming your issue is breadth of options and avoiding overshadowing people, I'd take a similar but more stripped-down approach to the one used above.  For each summoning or calling spell you have, choose two monsters, picking immediate combat and utility monsters for summoning and remote combat and utility monsters for calling.  Copy down the stats as mentioned.  That way, you'll have at most [number of summoning/calling spells known]*2 monsters available at any given time, and most of those will be short-duration summons, so you won't overshadow people by dumpster-diving for every solution.

Assuming your issue is play speed, the solution to that is to focus more on utility monsters since you don't need their full stat blocks and won't be doing anything with them in combat time.  Use only your highest-level slots for combat monsters, which means you'll be getting the most level-appropriate summons for that and you'll be focusing on a few big monsters rather than swarms of small ones--minion masters are fun, but they take forever to resolve and necromancers do that better anyway.  Your lower-level combat slots should be mostly buffs and BFC; buff up your summon and allies if you have the time, and then focus on BFC while one or two heavy hitters do combat for you rather than trying to fill the battlefield with summons.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: ideas for streamlining summoning?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 05:11:22 PM »
I'm considering playing something like a Malconvoker in an upcoming game (well, vacillating between that and a Mystic Ranger Swift Hunter).  I'm curious if people have any good ways to streamline summoning.  I would prefer to avoid statting up dozens of different monsters to summon over the course of my levels.  But, I also don't want to bleed out the most interesting parts of playing a summoner. 

My current idea was to stat up about 4 monsters, each with different roles.  And, then I would apply a penalty to them if I didn't use my highest spell levels to summon them.  So, I'd summon an X with Summon Monster 4, but if I used a Summon Monster 3 slot then I'd inflict 2 negative levels on it or something.

That isn't a good idea. In-game time is scarcer than out-of-game time. When you have all of them statted, you just flip to the card  that has the level you're looking for and play it. If you have one card and adjust for the level, however, you're doing calculations in the middle of your turn. That wastes game time, and that's terrible.

Honestly, it is better to just stat them out. You can keep the cards for later games, too. You won't be doing yourself any favours by having only a few Pokémon.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: ideas for streamlining summoning?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 05:33:07 PM »
Maybe the OP wasn't nearly as clear as I thought it was.  My goal is to avoid having 10 pages of statted out monsters.  That's what I've done in the past, but it's still more than I want.    Even 2 spells per spell level is just going to be too many -- it's too many different creatures, harder to create a well-defined theme, and just more of a character sheet than I want.  And, that's even given that I use my ipad for my character sheets.

What I'm not worried about dumpster diving, as I'm only going to use the creatures I stat out anyway.  That is one of my ways of restricting the power of the concept.  I'd ideally like to have around 4 monsters, to suit the various roles. 

And, please guys, I'm not a total noob.  I do have some vague idea of what I'm doing.  I was just hoping someone had a better solution than "only use your highest level spells for Summon Monster," which as I stated in the OP, had already occurred to me. 

I use a lot of tech at the gaming table.  But, even with all the fancy pdfs, etc. it'd still require a lot of spot modifiers, as I'll have Augment Summoning, etc.  Part of the reason the spot modifiers had occurred to me is that odds are there will be plenty of those going on anyway:  I will be throwing down buffs, as will the Cleric, I expect.  So, I was hoping that one more modifier wouldn't make all that big of a difference. 

I'm open to suggestions:  the goal was to avoid having 20 monsters of varying CRs statted out for the character. 

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: ideas for streamlining summoning?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 10:47:50 PM »
Maybe the OP wasn't nearly as clear as I thought it was.  My goal is to avoid having 10 pages of statted out monsters.  I'd ideally like to have around 4 monsters, to suit the various roles. 

Guys, I'm not a total noob. I was just hoping someone had a better solution than "only use your highest level spells for Summon Monster," which as I stated in the OP, had already occurred to me. 

The monsters still require a lot of spot modifiers. So, I was hoping that one more modifier wouldn't make all that big of a difference. 

I'm open to suggestions:  the goal was to avoid having 20 monsters of varying CRs statted out for the character.

No, I understood that you wanted to avoid statting out the monsters, I was merely pointing out that the alternative is much worse. What I'm saying is that any solution that involves editing the monsters you have is inherently a bad one. That isn't just for you, but for the whole table: nobody likes waiting while somebody adds or subtracts a bunch of stats for a summon.

As for the skills: you could streamline that by having the same skill modifier for all monsters of a certain level (or even all monsters in total), thus allowing you to recall it off the top of your head. Very useful for Spot in particular.

Offline Amechra

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Re: ideas for streamlining summoning?
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 12:18:53 AM »
Do you play with a laptop?

You could just have a spreadsheet that updates stats, so you can have a little database of summonable crap, and you can just plop 'em out.
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Offline Kasz

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Re: ideas for streamlining summoning?
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 05:45:59 AM »
Copy statblock from book / d20srd into word or excel.
Edit stats as appropriate for your 4 or so monsters per spell level.
Print or use laptop at table.
If laptop, either have them all in one folder or all in one document; if printed have them seperated by spell level then alphabetical order, make sure the title is "Summon Monster V: The Owlbear" or similar so you can flick through with ease.

This is what I did when I played a Malconvoker, I used a tablet, opened my character sheet on it. Had my planar bound demon's sheet open on it and when I summoned a monster I'd open that sheet and switch between three tabs relatively easily.

Obviously if you pick up an item that augments summoning mid session you need to edit stats... personally I'd say the item needs time to attune to me and I'd make all the changes inbetween sessions if possible.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: ideas for streamlining summoning?
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 06:19:06 PM »
4e gave summons 1 hit point only.
No damage on miss, is different.
Very little bookkeeping, otherwise.
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Offline Captnq

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Re: ideas for streamlining summoning?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 01:07:08 AM »
Well, actually... that was something I was toying with. Not sure how welcome it would be...

I was thinking of adding an appendix to The Spell Book. It would have the stats for every named monster in TSB you could summon. How useful would that be?
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