Author Topic: The Codex of War - A Ground-Up Rewrite of the Tome of Battle [FEEDBACK PLEASE!]  (Read 15404 times)

Offline Ziegander

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LOTS of new mechanics for Barbarians and Fighters (in the form of Improved Rage, Rage Powers, and Advanced Training options) if anyone is interested in taking a look and seeing what I've been working on. Some new feats as well. More Barbarian/Fighter stuff to come as the week moves forward. :)

Again, HERE's the link.

Offline Garryl

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Barbarian
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Fighter
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Paladin
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 11:26:45 PM by Garryl »

Offline Nanshork

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Just want to say that I haven't forgotten about this but I don't have time to thoroughly review while at work.   :)

Offline Ziegander

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Barbarian
Rage seems to be the core of this class. The class features after that aren't the sort you can really rely upon for a full character, so the rage needs to be good. Improved Rage and Rage Powers look like they'll fit the bill, but I can't really comment until there's more than just a few blurbs of concepts. However, the large difference between enraged and not enraged may be an issue. If you don't spend any rounds on powers, you should have enough rounds for the day at most levels, I think. Probably will run short for the last encounter of the day, though. Using any rage powers will probably cost you an encounter's worth of rage, however, or more for the higher level ones.

Yeah, and something to keep in mind, that I need to remember to explicitly state, is that Rage Powers don't require you to be Raging to use. There will also be a decent Extra Rage feat to help fill in those gaps should you want to be a crazy Raging Rage Power using Rage Monster.

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Fighter
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I'm going to need to look that up, because you're the second person to say that I mentioned that you gain a feat every level, but I can't find that. I know that it says you gain a feat every odd level...

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Changing bonus feats is interesting. Has a small typo, though ("fopr" instead of "for" when talking about keeping prereqs).

K, thx, I'll fix that.

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Fighter training: Less than amazed with the way this works. The base options are all numerical bonuses, which is a decent fallback, but isn't as impressive. The fact that they are tied to specific weapons or armor kind of negates the Warrior's Aptitude ability, which is all about NOT being tied to specific weapons or armor.

Well, the two are supposed to be filling different conceptual design space. Also, the training doesn't apply to "specific" weapons or armors per se, but rather to whole groups of weapons/armors.

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The alternative abilities are more interesting. I don't see anything for shield use in there, though. For the requirements, are the bonus requirements before or after the +1 to everything you already have that you get alongside the new ability?

I'm having a hard time parsing your question. Do you mean to ask if the special abilities' extra stuff in addition to the normal bonuses? Because, if that's what you're asking, then the answer's yes.

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Also, the way the bonuses scale (new weapon/armor groups come in at low bonuses), you're encouraged to grab all the groups you want at low levels, and only take special abilities at high levels.

Yeah, that is the idea.

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The fact that you only get 5 options in total, at least one of which (two in practice since there aren't enough abilities you'll qualify for) has to be a weapon/armor group, you don't have that many options in here. They also feel rather limited in scope.

I'm not sure how limited they are, they feel like they can definitely be character defining abilities. Anyway, they aren't supposed to be superb in power or versatility, as the Fighter gets that from his bonus feats (what with Style Training and the re-written feats I have and am planning).

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Field Commander: Shouldn't this require that the ally's contingent action be an action he could take? It seems to imply that the ally's contingent action could be actions the ally can't take.

I'll have to take a second look at this, because that's exactly how I meant for it to read (that the ally's contingent action can't be an action that said ally can't take).

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Paladin
Code: Losing out on circumstance bonuses to attack rolls seems a bit more open-ended than intended. For example, Marshal auras are circumstance bonuses. Also, according to the SRD, flanking isn't even a circumstance bonus (which seems to be the intent to forgo). Also, Paladins flat-out lose to Undead and Constructs and other creatures immune to nonlethal (get flat-footed or just fall prone, and he's not allowed to harm you).

Hmm... that's weird. Flanking bonuses should totally be circumstance bonuses. Anyway, since that's not the case, well, crap, I have to edit this again and it can't be as clean as I'd like it to be. Oh, well.

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Why is Shocking Grasp the only direct damage spell on the spell list?

Don't worry, the spell list is totally not done by a long shot.

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Ally divine bond: Do you only gain one effect? Do you gain all effects of equal or lesser hp expenditure value

None of the divine bond shit is anywhere close to done, it's just placeholder rules put there so I know where I'm going with it when I get there. lol.

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I find it odd that Knight's Challenge makes Paladins as good or better at hunting Lawful creatures than Evil ones. Also, archers, spellcasters, and other ranged combatants get arbitrarily screwed.

Screwing spellcasters was definitely part of the intention. Ranged combatants less so, but, I dunno. The ability needs work, I'll give you that, but I think it's salvageable, very flavorful, and can get to a place that it's very awesome.

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Daunting Challenge refers to the Divine Challenge ability. I don't see Divine Challenge anywhere.

Thx, will edit.

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Edit: I assume Equipment Divine Bond will be changed soon to use the new special weapon/armor properties instead of the (weaker) SRD ones?

Eventually, yeah. It's all in flux all the time. :D

Offline Garryl

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Bonus Feats: The note says this makes you gain a feat every level. Did you change feats to be granted at every even character level somewhere? Also, the note only applies to single-classed Fighters, anyways, as multiclassed Fighters would potentially be out of phase on the two bonus feat cycles.

I'm going to need to look that up, because you're the second person to say that I mentioned that you gain a feat every level, but I can't find that. I know that it says you gain a feat every odd level...

It's in brackets as reminder text, at the end of the sentence. It incorrectly asserts that the odd level bonus feats make you effectively gain one feat at each level.

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The alternative abilities are more interesting. I don't see anything for shield use in there, though. For the requirements, are the bonus requirements before or after the +1 to everything you already have that you get alongside the new ability?

I'm having a hard time parsing your question. Do you mean to ask if the special abilities' extra stuff in addition to the normal bonuses? Because, if that's what you're asking, then the answer's yes.

Many abilities require some bonus in a specific category. For example, Widget Mastery requires Widget Weapons +3. If, at your previous level, you had Widget Weapons +2, it should increase to +3 at this level when you select a new group or a new ability. However, the wording seems to indicate that the bonuses of your existing abilities don't increase until AFTER you pick the ability. It is a bit unclear though. Can you select Widget Mastery?

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Also, the way the bonuses scale (new weapon/armor groups come in at low bonuses), you're encouraged to grab all the groups you want at low levels, and only take special abilities at high levels.

Yeah, that is the idea.

Any chance it could be made so that you're not penalized for taking the same options in a different order?

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I find it odd that Knight's Challenge makes Paladins as good or better at hunting Lawful creatures than Evil ones. Also, archers, spellcasters, and other ranged combatants get arbitrarily screwed.

Screwing spellcasters was definitely part of the intention. Ranged combatants less so, but, I dunno. The ability needs work, I'll give you that, but I think it's salvageable, very flavorful, and can get to a place that it's very awesome.

Feels mechanically more like a mindless rage as it is now.

Offline Ziegander

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It's in brackets as reminder text, at the end of the sentence. It incorrectly asserts that the odd level bonus feats make you effectively gain one feat at each level.

Ah, thank you. That's what I get for copy-pasta. Fixed.

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Many abilities require some bonus in a specific category. For example, Widget Mastery requires Widget Weapons +3. If, at your previous level, you had Widget Weapons +2, it should increase to +3 at this level when you select a new group or a new ability. However, the wording seems to indicate that the bonuses of your existing abilities don't increase until AFTER you pick the ability. It is a bit unclear though. Can you select Widget Mastery?

I see what you're saying. At 2nd, you pick Widget Training for the +1, and then at 10th you want to pick Widget Mastery which requires Widget Training +3. Yes, you can do that. I'll come up with an effective and explicit wording sometime in the near future.

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Any chance it could be made so that you're not penalized for taking the same options in a different order?

I'm not sure what you mean by penalized? Are you asking if I'll change it so you can take the special abilities at 2nd level and still get your +X bonuses? If so, that's not something I want to do, no.

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Feels mechanically more like a mindless rage as it is now.

Any suggestions on how to improve it?

Offline Garryl

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Any chance it could be made so that you're not penalized for taking the same options in a different order?

I'm not sure what you mean by penalized? Are you asking if I'll change it so you can take the special abilities at 2nd level and still get your +X bonuses? If so, that's not something I want to do, no.

If you take Widget Training +1 at 2nd, Widget Mastery at 6th, and Armor Training +1 at 10th, vs. doing the same thing but with Widget Mastery delayed to 10th and Armor Training moved up to 6th, you wind up with the same abilities except that Armor Training is at +2 instead of +1. Ergo, you are strictly better or worse off for taking the same options in a different order, despite being the same level and having the same other abilities.

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Feels mechanically more like a mindless rage as it is now.

Any suggestions on how to improve it?

The issues that make it like a mindless rage are (as I see them):
- Must move to attack.
- Must always attack in melee.
- Can't surrender.
- Can't retreat.
- Can't use your actual competencies.
- Fight to the death.
- Keep beating up a defeated target for several rounds (until you succeed on a save) if you drop the Paladin.

What is it's true purpose? I can't really tell you how to make it great until I know what you were trying to achieve.

Offline Ziegander

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If you take Widget Training +1 at 2nd, Widget Mastery at 6th, and Armor Training +1 at 10th, vs. doing the same thing but with Widget Mastery delayed to 10th and Armor Training moved up to 6th, you wind up with the same abilities except that Armor Training is at +2 instead of +1. Ergo, you are strictly better or worse off for taking the same options in a different order, despite being the same level and having the same other abilities.

Ah, right, and what do you think I should do about that?

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The issues that make [Knight's Challenge] like a mindless rage are (as I see them):
- Must move to attack.
- Must always attack in melee.
- Can't surrender.
- Can't retreat.
- Can't use your actual competencies.
- Fight to the death.
- Keep beating up a defeated target for several rounds (until you succeed on a save) if you drop the Paladin.

What is it's true purpose? I can't really tell you how to make it great until I know what you were trying to achieve.

The purpose is an ability that lets the Paladin call out a foe and challenge him/her/it to an honorable Knight's duel. So stuff like, "attack in melee," and "can't surrender/retreat," is exactly as intended. The only thing unintended in there is the beating up the Paladin after he's already dropped.

Is there something about the ability you don't like or that you think could be improved?

Regardless, I've added the full descriptions for the Iron Heart maneuvers.

Offline Garryl

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If you take Widget Training +1 at 2nd, Widget Mastery at 6th, and Armor Training +1 at 10th, vs. doing the same thing but with Widget Mastery delayed to 10th and Armor Training moved up to 6th, you wind up with the same abilities except that Armor Training is at +2 instead of +1. Ergo, you are strictly better or worse off for taking the same options in a different order, despite being the same level and having the same other abilities.

Ah, right, and what do you think I should do about that?

Option 1: Make all bonuses be at maximum, rather than decreasing (probably not what you want, but the simplest to do).
Option 2: Each new training has a bonus 1 less than the previous training, rather than starting at a flat +1.

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The issues that make [Knight's Challenge] like a mindless rage are (as I see them):
- Must move to attack.
- Must always attack in melee.
- Can't surrender.
- Can't retreat.
- Can't use your actual competencies.
- Fight to the death.
- Keep beating up a defeated target for several rounds (until you succeed on a save) if you drop the Paladin.

What is it's true purpose? I can't really tell you how to make it great until I know what you were trying to achieve.

The purpose is an ability that lets the Paladin call out a foe and challenge him/her/it to an honorable Knight's duel. So stuff like, "attack in melee," and "can't surrender/retreat," is exactly as intended. The only thing unintended in there is the beating up the Paladin after he's already dropped.

Is there something about the ability you don't like or that you think could be improved?

Regardless, I've added the full descriptions for the Iron Heart maneuvers.

Mechanically, it's a "screw you" to anyone who isn't a melee beast. If you're going to make a save-or-do-nothing-useful-for-the-encounter effect, just do that, don't beat around the bush.

Fluff-wise, it just doesn't work. What's honorable about a duel to the death between a heavily armed warrior and a wrinkly old man (and not like Bra'tac and Lu Tze)? And neither side being allowed to submit? Plus it's not even a duel! The Paladin can still be attacked by (and attack) creatures other than the target, and the Paladin's allies can still hinder the target (damage only grants a save, and non-damaging effects don't even do that). I also take issue with the fact that the Paladin has no compulsion himself to be at all honorable in the "duel".

Offline Risada

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You want to do something that will give the Paladin a chance to draw the "aggro" from his enemies? Have you thought about something along the lines of Iron Guard's Glare? Something like this:

Ability with Fancy Name: The Paladin emanates a divine aura that enervates all enemies around him, an eternal reminder that the Paladin is a force to be reckoned with. All enemies within 30 ft. from the Paladin takes a penalty to its attack and damage rolls equal to the Paladin's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). This penalty does not apply to attacks made against the Paladin. All affected enemies are aware of this effect.

Or maybe something like the Divine Challenge from the 4e Paladin - deal damage instead of apply a penalty?