Weapons of Legacy - does it need fixing?

[Risada]

So, as the title might suggest, I am thinking on giving a few tweaks around the rules on Weapons of Legacy. I know there's a few homebrews around that make the "item gets better as you level" better, but I want to make WoL work.

Now, a few questions:

-are the penalties attained while progressing with a WoL bad? Do you think they should be removed?
-are the abilities offered by the book enough? I know Cunning is most of the time a must have. Are there any others?
-the abilities' costs are fair? Do they need some tweaking?

[Wrex]

So, as the title might suggest, I am thinking on giving a few tweaks around the rules on Weapons of Legacy. I know there's a few homebrews around that make the "item gets better as you level" better, but I want to make WoL work.

Now, a few questions:

-are the penalties attained while progressing with a WoL bad? Do you think they should be removed?
-are the abilities offered by the book enough? I know Cunning is most of the time a must have. Are there any others?
-the abilities' costs are fair? Do they need some tweaking?

Remove the penalties, definitly.

The biggest issue with a WoL is that I can just sunder the damn thing and laugh at your wasted investment. If the stuff was better priced, had no drawback, and you could magically turn any weapon of a similar type into the same thing, they might be worth using.

Also, did you notice the price of most abilities was massivly toned down in the MiC? That's WoTC realising most of that junk is overpriced, and you barely have enough WBL to cover your needs, let alone your wants.

[Risada]

The biggest issue with a WoL is that I can just sunder the damn thing and laugh at your wasted investment. If the stuff was better priced, had no drawback, and you could magically turn any weapon of a similar type into the same thing, they might be worth using.

Merely granting a bonus on its hardness and HP would not help with this, I suppose?

Also, did you notice the price of most abilities was massivly toned down in the MiC? That's WoTC realising most of that junk is overpriced, and you barely have enough WBL to cover your needs, let alone your wants.

The costs I meant are those slots - A through I - that you can allocate abilities to the weapon.

What if the enhancement bonuses and the other abilities had separate progressions?

[RedWarlock]

What if the enhancement bonuses and the other abilities had separate progressions?

The distinction being that they're not always weapons, they could be any other kind of item. So putting the enhancement bonus on a distinct track is good for weapons, but loses the multi-focus for other item types.

I'd say the penalty tracks are a mixed bag, but if custom-making, choosing the right track for what your character has a surplus of is key. I have one player making a custom Valenar double-scimitar WoL, and using the track that only has a few minor number penalties, plus a spell of every level after he's already got higher-than-that-slots (he's a single-class cleric), and the benefits he's getting, despite the minor penalties, are enough to make one of my other players interested in getting one for himself, giving him more cash to spend in other ways, like making up for those minor numeric penalties.

It's not an optimal system, but it's still not horrible. I'd put the system at about middle-of-the-pack.

[veekie]

I'd think the penalty tracks are largely unnecessary, particularly when items are for BOOSTING your numbers, not lowering them. Just ensure that the rituals to attune have costs appropriate to what you're getting out of the item. Or put in a feat cost to fully bond to the item's full potential instead(effectively turning Ancestral Weapon into a Weapon of Legacy thing).

[InnaBinder]

If the penalty tracks are to remain in any form, the benefits granted need to be both better and less commonly duplicated by other means.

[Risada]

I've been thinking about the penalties, and I also think they are not needed. Instead, how about setting requisites along the way, not that different from a PrC? Something like X ranks in Skill A, BAB +X... but thinking about it, I guess this is a bad idea...

Maybe a single feat plus a few rituals for fluff purposes...

[Bauglir]

Miscellaneous abilities with save DCs and/or damage dice need to scale effectively with level of the wielder, so that they remain relevant.

[ariasderros]

Maybe a single feat plus a few rituals for fluff purposes...

Maybe a feat-chain that includes Ancestral Relic?

[zook1shoe]

Remove the penalties!

I have yet to see anyone anywhere want to use an item from this book, exactly for that reason

[Risada]

Greater Thread Necromancy!

I am trying to tackle this one once again. Quick and dirty notes:

There's no more penalties: Paying for the ritual costs with GP and XP seems like a fair price to me.

SLAs will scale: All spell-like abilities will scale until the max level allowed for the Legacy feat (up to CL 10 for least, CL 15 for lesser, CL 20 for greater). Any other level-based abilities will scale in the same fashion.

Rewrite a few abilities that needs a boost/fixing: Self explanatory. I suppose I shouldn't poke Cunning, right?

Anything else I should look into?

[InnaBinder]

Maybe a single feat plus a few rituals for fluff purposes...

Maybe a feat-chain that includes Ancestral Relic?

FWIW, I very rarely see folks count feat-chains as good things.  Most often, they decry the first (and sometimes second) feats in the chain as "just a feat tax."

[Unbeliever]

Yeah, the penalties are annoying.

Really, though, like many sub-systems it just seems like a lot of work.  It's a lot of effort to custom-make a Legacy, and that's what you're almost invariably going to do:  the ones in the book kinda suck, and if you're inclined to have such an item for your character it's probably going to be something central to the concept.  The odds that something already in a book happens to mesh perfectly with your concept are quite low.

And, as I'm sure others have mentioned, the abilities are just too ... tepid.  They have awesome names and the stuff sounds like it should be cool, but it too often ends up being a +2 to do this or that thing.  Or, it's a decent ability but you have to be 16th level to get it, and by then it's pretty unimpressive (compared to say, 7th level spells).  In short, it's not worth hanging your character concept on it, or it's something you could just do with magic items anyway.  And, if that's the case, it's unclear what Weapons of Legacy bring to the table.

Sorry I can't be more positive, as a fan of Moorcock it's a system I really wanted to like. 

[ariasderros]

Feat-chain was a poor choice of wording on my part. I meant how certain other groups of feats are based around each other. Like Inspiration feats.

... Feat-families?

Like linking Item Familiar, Ancestral Relic, and the Endless granting amulet (Wedded to History feat) into a series of feats that can be used together.

[zook1shoe]

like i said before the penalties cripple the items beyond usefulness. once removed or replaced with a single feat and some rituals similar to a Kensai? yeah that'd be cool.

but multiple feats.... hell no :-p

[Vaerenth]

Don't know if anyone cares about it anymore but the whole thing about hardness and Hitpoints of a Legacy Items comes up pretty early in the book. Page 10 to be exact.

Even if a legacy item is damaged (whether because of a failed save or through direct physical attack), it is tougher than a standard magic item of the same sort. A legacy item’s hardness is increased by 10, and its hit points are 50 or the total from materials and enhancements, whichever is higher. For instance, a legacy longsword with a +5 enhancement bonus has hardness 30 (10 for steel, +10 for the weapon’s enhancement, and +10 for being an item of legacy); its hit points total 55 (5 for the steel blade, +50 for the weapon’s enhancement). A damaged legacy item continues to function, but once it is destroyed, its legacy abilities are lost. However, a destroyed legacy item always leaves a tangible remnant—the shards ofa sword’s blade, the metalshod heels of a staff, and so on. Even a legacy item destroyed by a disintegrate spell leaves a remnant (this is an exception to the spell’s printed effect).

Certainly not impossible, but still tougher than normal

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

When custom, not that bad