Psion "Temporal Acceleration" and "Delay Power" vs "Delay Spell"

[Zoltanne]

This may have been asked and answered but I haven't found it if it has.

My objective is to caste Temporal Acceleration (TA) for say 4 rounds of acceleration and then in each of these apparent rounds, caste a power using the Delay Power feet SUCH THAT they all activate as soon as the TA is over and it returns to my Standard Action. If I was using the Delay Spell feat I could specify the number of rounds to delay such that in the first apparrent round under TA, I would set a delay of 4 rounds, in the second apparent round under TA I would set a delay of 3 rounds, and so on such that each was timed to expire at the same time (i.e. as soon as TA itself had finished). But the Delay Power does not work the same as Delay Spell. With Delay Power you have to choose 1 of 3 triggers, being:

(1) The power activates when you take a standard action to activate it;
(2) It activates when a creature enters the area that the power will affect (only powers that affect areas can use this trigger condition); or
(3) It activates on your turn after 5 rounds pass.

Triggers (2) and (3) won't achieve my effect. So (1) seems the only option. So could I caste my 4 delayed power inside the TA with this trigger type and then can I use my SINGLE Standard Action after TA has ended, to then trigger ALL FOUR of my delayed powers? Or can this Standard Action only trigger a single delayed power?

[ariasderros]

This may have been asked and answered but I haven't found it if it has.

My objective is to caste Temporal Acceleration (TA) for say 4 rounds of acceleration and then in each of these apparent rounds, caste a power using the Delay Power feet SUCH THAT they all activate as soon as the TA is over and it returns to my Standard Action. If I was using the Delay Spell feat I could specify the number of rounds to delay such that in the first apparrent round under TA, I would set a delay of 4 rounds, in the second apparent round under TA I would set a delay of 3 rounds, and so on such that each was timed to expire at the same time (i.e. as soon as TA itself had finished). But the Delay Power does not work the same as Delay Spell. With Delay Power you have to choose 1 of 3 triggers, being:

(1) The power activates when you take a standard action to activate it;
(2) It activates when a creature enters the area that the power will affect (only powers that affect areas can use this trigger condition); or
(3) It activates on your turn after 5 rounds pass.

Triggers (2) and (3) won't achieve my effect. So (1) seems the only option. So could I caste my 4 delayed power inside the TA with this trigger type and then can I use my SINGLE Standard Action after TA has ended, to then trigger ALL FOUR of my delayed powers? Or can this Standard Action only trigger a single delayed power?

It is actually better than that for you, if you Delay them, then you can have them set up to trigger once a creature enters that field. The power "recognizes" that creature instantly by its "perceptions". But by yours, it only triggers once you slow back down. Basically this trick gets around the limits of TA.

Similarly, Time Stop + Delay Spell, you only delay each spell by one round. The "countdown" doesn't go by your time, it goes by real time.

[Zoltanne]

I didn't think that the "trigger on characters entering the area of effect" would work for what I want to do, as I read a post on another forum about a similar question where it said:

"However, a power that you delay until a creature enters its affected area will activate immediately if you manifest it on an area containing creatures despite the fact that you are accelerated and those creatures will be immune.  So, you can use temporal acceleration to set the powers as traps in unoccupied areas, but not as instant attacks for when your acceleration ends."

What you seem to be saying is that the trigger won't recognise the creatures while the TA is active because it cannot perceive them, because it does not allow creatures to be targeted, and will only recognise them when TA expires. I understand your logic, and would like it to work like this, but am not sure that it does.

[ariasderros]

I didn't think that the "trigger on characters entering the area of effect" would work for what I want to do, as I read a post on another forum about a similar question where it said:

"However, a power that you delay until a creature enters its affected area will activate immediately if you manifest it on an area containing creatures despite the fact that you are accelerated and those creatures will be immune.  So, you can use temporal acceleration to set the powers as traps in unoccupied areas, but not as instant attacks for when your acceleration ends."

What you seem to be saying is that the trigger won't recognise the creatures while the TA is active because it cannot perceive them, because it does not allow creatures to be targeted, and will only recognise them when TA expires. I understand your logic, and would like it to work like this, but am not sure that it does.

Let me put it to you this way.
Scene 1: You are Accelerated. Your power triggers instantly based on your speed. You manifest Energy Stun on an area containing creatures. The power goes off so quickly that the game glitches and doesn't register the enemies as being affected.

Scene 2: You are Accelerated. Your power triggers in an area, but only once it registers enemies are there. Your power, once manifested, is no longer part of you. Powers that are on you have their duration "tick away", as they are accelerated too, but powers that are in effect anywhere other than on your person are not Accelerated. Therefore, the Delayed power no longer registers your existence, and as an effect separate from your person, it is a part of the normal time stream. Your TA ends. You notice the power trigger, due to the fact that its trigger conditions were met. To most observers, it happened right away, to the spell (if it were anthropomorphisized) it triggered right away (since it never was part of the TA), only you, in your TA, noticed that the power even was something other than instantaneous.


So yes, that italicized text was sort of correct, in that the power will trigger "instantly", but it will not do so as part of the TA, because it has become an effect separate from the TA's purview of: you; your gear; effects currently on you.

[Demelain]

Ask yourself this: If you cast a delayed power, and an enemy casts temporal acceleration, does your delay continue to tick during their apparent rounds?

[Zoltanne]

Hello Ariasderros, thanks for your comments but I am having a bit of trouble interpreting them, so could I give an example and can you let me know what you think will happen.

I manifest TA with 2 rounds of apparent actions.

Apparent Round 1 - I manifest Energy Ball on a group of enemies without the Delay Power feat.
Apparent Round 2 - I manifest Energy Ball on a group of enemies with the Delay Power feat and its triggered to activate when creatures enter the area (although they are already in the area of effect).

[ariasderros]

Okay, first, let me make a comparison here. In the video game "Champions of Norrath" there are stones called Misty Globes. When these stones are put into a weapon, the weapon moves faster, allowing you to make more strikes in less time. There are different ranks of Misty Globes, and the better they are, the faster your weapon. Problem is, the fastest of them causes your weapon to move so fast, that the game literally fails to register the hit. The attack moves so quickly, it just "whiffs" them.


Okay, now then, let me make this comparison using your examples, and expanding on them a little bit.

TA Scene #1: Your Enemy is under the effect of Concealing Amorpha, and has a Astral Construct out. CA will expire on him in 2 rounds, AC will expire next round. You use TA for 3 rounds.
Result: Nothing happens to his durations, TA had no effect on him.

TA Scene #2: You have an Astral Construct, an Energy Wall, and a Force Screen active. You then manifest TA for 2 rounds.
Result: AC and EW do not have their duration lessened, due to the fact that they have no part in the TA. However FS does have its duration lowered, since it is an effect on your person.

TA Scene #3: You start out a battle by using TA for 2 rounds. On the first round you manifest an Energy Wall.
Result: The EW does not have your second round count against its duration. This is due to the fact that, after it has been manifested, it is separate from the TA.

TA Scene #4: You manifest Energy Ball, with no Metapsionics, on an area that contains enemies, while under the effects of TA.
Result: TA specifically states that the power will fail to affect them. I imagine it as being a case of the fact that you are manifesting it so quickly, that the effect passes them by too fast to really feel it. In essence, you whiff them the same as in the comparison at the top of this post.

TA Scene #5: You manifest Delayed Energy Ball, triggered to activate when creatures, on an area that contains enemies, while under the effects of TA.
Result: Delay slows down the blast to when the power registers the enemies. Because Delay gives the power a duration other than instantaneous (it would have a duration that reads like Delayed Blast Fireball), the fact that it is a power separate from you kick in. It now is like Energy Wall, or Astral Construct, as above. It is not a power in effect on your person, like Force Screen, thus TA does not affect it once manifested.

To make one last comparison, let us look at a CO trick for Sorcerers & Wizards. Time Stop + Stored Lightning Bolt. Time Stop dos not let you affect creatures, but does let you affect terrain (to a point). Stored Lightning Bolt lets you "charge" the ground, instead of just hitting your enemy. Once Time Stop lapses, Stored Lightning Bolt registers that someone/thing in touching the charged material, and it goes boom. As far as most onlookers are concerned, this all happened at the same time, only you notice that time has passed, but that is because your whole body is watching it in hyper-speed.
That's what Delay Power is doing for you, the difference being that you can just "charge" an area in general, without having to target a particular object.

This is CO. Mix in Ardent with Dominant Mantle (Time) and Metapower (Persisted TA), along with a PP recovery method, and you hit immediate TO.

[Zoltanne]

Ok thanks for your thoughts and scenarios. It’s becoming clearer to me but I just want to concentrate on making sure I understand scene #5.

You say that “delay slows down the blast to when the power registers enemies”. I agree that this is the crux of the issue. You then say that as this power is separate from me, once its manifest “TA does not affect it”.

So:
1.   Are you therefore saying that once Delay Power + Energy Ball are manifest that they ‘leave’ the apparent rounds of TA, and are no longer controlled by the TA effect,  so they are instead now subject to the normal timing of all creatures?
2.   If so, then are you saying that it will therefore immediately register the presence of enemies in its area of effect and detonate causing creatures damage? If so is this:
   a.   Prior to TA expiring?
   b.   Or only after TA has expired?

I can’t see how the above is possible though as TA specifically states that area of effect powers only have their “normal effect on creatures in the area once this power ends”. This seems to imply that area of effect powers do not leave the control of TA, since TA must still be in control of them for it to be able to suppress their effects until after TA expires.  And then when TA expires, if the effects are still ongoing due to the remaining duration of the area of effect power, they become unsuppressed (as TA has expired), and the creatures in the area of effect will be damaged.

So, as far as I can see, the trick is to ensure that area of effect powers, either a) do not trigger until after TA has expired if they are instantaneous or b) have a duration that lasts until after TA has expired if they are triggered inside a TA . Thus I see the following options with respect to the Delay Power + Energy Ball (an instantaneous power) combination:

1.   TA stops Delay Power from sensing creatures in its area of effect until after TA has expired, but when it expires, Delay Power then kicks in, which senses creatures and thus detonates the Energy Ball, thus causing creatures damage immediately after TA has expired.
2.   TA doesn’t stop Delay Power from sensing creatures, and so it does sense creatures, and it does detonate Energy Ball, but its effects are not felt until TA expires, thus the creatures are damaged after TA expires.
3.   TA doesn’t stop Delay Power from sensing creatures, and so it does sense creatures, and it does then detonate Energy Ball, but as Energy Ball is an instantaneous effect, it does not affect any creatures (since TA specifically prohibits this for area of effect powers) and thus it is wasted as there is no ongoing effect of Energy Ball after TA has expired.

Of the options above, the first two cause damage while the third does not. So it all comes down to how TA  and Delay Power on an Instantaneous Power interact.

The first thing to agree is how TA interacts with Delay Power. Does it stop it from checking it trigger mechanism until TA expires or does it allow its trigger mechanism to be checked, so as to allow it start sensing for creatures in its area of effect as soon as its manifest?

From what you’ve said and what the other forum post had, it starts checking its trigger mechanism as soon as its manifest, since its separate from the manifestor and thus the manifestor’s TA. So that rules out option 1 above.

Then the question is, does Delay Power detonate Energy Ball once it has sensed creatures. I think the answer is also yes, since what else can it do, as its sensed creatures in the area of effect.

Then the final question is what happens when Energy Ball detonates. As its instantaneous I cannot see how it can affect the creatures in the area of effect, as TA prohibits this while TA is active and as there is no ongoing effect which lasts after TA has expired, which rules out option 2 and thus leasves only option 3 as the one seeming most logical. Thus, as option 3 results in no damage to creatures, I have not been able to achieve my goal with this combination.

BUT, if Delay Power worked like Delay Spell (which, given the magic/psionics transparency, I would have expected), then I could have specifed the exact number of rounds of delay and thus I could have achieved the effect of triggering the detonation of Energy Ball after TA had expired, as I would time my Delay Spell to be as many rounds as needed to be after TA had expired (just how many that would need to be is a separate discussion).