Is DN 2 a solid dip?

[bobthe6th]

Ok, to clarify, I nearly break out in hives when I play a pure caster. The book keeping scares me off, as do the huge amount of options. Bearing that in mind...

Do you think taking two levels of Dread Necromancer, and the tomb born soul feat is a solid investment for a melee character. The benafits I see are a nice spell list(in armor), DR 2, free out of combat healing, and rebuke undead. Cons would be the d8 HD, losing one point of BAB, and not being healed by positive energy.

[Rebel7284]

I think it's a somewhat suboptimal dip as compared to other options.  Cleric 1 or Conjurer 1 are so much better.

[InnaBinder]

What would you follow up DN 2 with?  I can conceive a couple options where it's a decent choice, but it depends a lot on your path afterwards, and the rest of the group (including whether anyone else can be healed by your abilities).

[bobthe6th]

Well, I was talking generally. The only time I have ever used it was a fighter 2/wolftotem whirling frenzy barbarian 2/ Dread necromancer 2 (the game banned ToB classes, but allowed martial study/stance + a feat to refresh manuvers). The build was for survivability(it's a solo game, so being able to take damage is very nice.)

In other games I would be thinking more like taking barbarian for pounce/whirling frenzy and dips in warblade&swordsage for utility maneuvers. It wouldn't be a combat monster, but the idea would be a survivable build that can rage for some combat prowess. So like Barb 2(improved trip from wolf totem)/DN 2/ Swordsage 2/WarBlade 4+, maybe a cleric 1 dip and some PRC in the distant future.

[Gribel]

The Wrathful Healing weapon enhancement solves all your problems with both DR and healing, albeit at a +3 cost. All damage you deal, you get back as life. Found at Enemies and Allies, IIRC.

[bobthe6th]

...at a +3 cost. Meaning a +4 weapon, with no other enhancements. 32K... That is a lot of gold.

[InnaBinder]

Well, I was talking generally. The only time I have ever used it was a fighter 2/wolftotem whirling frenzy barbarian 2/ Dread necromancer 2 (the game banned ToB classes, but allowed martial study/stance + a feat to refresh manuvers). The build was for survivability(it's a solo game, so being able to take damage is very nice.)

In other games I would be thinking more like taking barbarian for pounce/whirling frenzy and dips in warblade&swordsage for utility maneuvers. It wouldn't be a combat monster, but the idea would be a survivable build that can rage for some combat prowess. So like Barb 2(improved trip from wolf totem)/DN 2/ Swordsage 2/WarBlade 4+, maybe a cleric 1 dip and some PRC in the distant future.

In that case, you might find some mileage out of Wolf Totem + Wolf Spirit Totem Barb 2/DN 2/Crusader X, making you very team-focused and able to provide in-combat as well as out-of-combat healing while still sticking to the Meatshield archetype.  Ordinarily, I wouldn't rate it as super-effective, but given your preferences, this looks like a style you would probably relish.

[bobthe6th]

In that case, you might find some mileage out of Wolf Totem + Wolf Spirit Totem Barb 2/DN 2/Crusader X, making you very team-focused and able to provide in-combat as well as out-of-combat healing while still sticking to the Meatshield archetype.  Ordinarily, I wouldn't rate it as super-effective, but given your preferences, this looks like a style you would probably relish.

is the +2 to attack on a flank really worth more then +10ft movement speed or pounce? Otherwise that does look solid. Would a sword sage 2 dip for movement based maneuvers/general utility be worth it on that build(Shadow jaunt, cloak of deception, sudden leap... ect)? What about a Warblade dip 1 for iron heat surge and such?

[skydragonknight]

For a Melee, Crusader has more synergy as a dip than Dread Necro and still provides unlimited out-of-combat healing. I've also heard Lawful Incarnates are good defensively and an Azurin who takes Bonus Essentia can benefit a lot from even just a couple levels. I'm not an expert on that though (Sinfire Titan is, but haven't seen him lately).

[InnaBinder]

In that case, you might find some mileage out of Wolf Totem + Wolf Spirit Totem Barb 2/DN 2/Crusader X, making you very team-focused and able to provide in-combat as well as out-of-combat healing while still sticking to the Meatshield archetype.  Ordinarily, I wouldn't rate it as super-effective, but given your preferences, this looks like a style you would probably relish.

is the +2 to attack on a flank really worth more then +10ft movement speed or pounce? Otherwise that does look solid. Would a sword sage 2 dip for movement based maneuvers/general utility be worth it on that build(Shadow jaunt, cloak of deception, sudden leap... ect)? What about a Warblade dip 1 for iron heat surge and such?

How valuable the flank bonus is depends largely on the rest of your party, so I don't know that there's a "one-size-fits-all" answer; Pounce is pretty hard to give up, but there are lots of other ways to get it.  The Lion Totem is just the easiest.

I'm not a fan of the Swordsage dip for a melee character, because it further slows down your BAB, which already took a hit from your foray into DN.

As SDK said, Crusader is generally more synergistic with DN than Warblade, because they both have CHA as a focal point, and can both provide some healing.  You generally want to be careful about spreading yourself out too thin in 3.5, and dipping Warblade introduces a level of MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency, in this case 4 stats) that is often difficult to support without a generous stat generation method.

[bobthe6th]

but without either you don't have the concentrate in place of save diamond mind maneuvers.
also a wrblade 2 dip gives uncanny dodge...

I can see your point with SS though. Still... free 50ft extraordinary teleport is so very nice for escaping things.

[InnaBinder]

but without either you don't have the concentrate in place of save diamond mind maneuvers.
also a wrblade 2 dip gives uncanny dodge...

I can see your point with SS though. Still... free 50ft extraordinary teleport is so very nice for escaping things.

Your saves should be pretty strong with a Barb 2/DN 2/Crusader 2 base, really.  Uncanny Dodge, while useful, is arguably less useful than the higher level Crusader maneuvers/stances you'd further delay by spreading out like that.

Again, it looks like you're trying to grab all the nice low-level things, on a mid-level character.  With a few exceptions, this is less useful than getting level-appropriate abilities.

[CDTalmas]

For a Melee, Crusader has more synergy as a dip than Dread Necro and still provides unlimited out-of-combat healing. I've also heard Lawful Incarnates are good defensively and an Azurin who takes Bonus Essentia can benefit a lot from even just a couple levels. I'm not an expert on that though (Sinfire Titan is, but haven't seen him lately).

Other than targeting "an ant or something", what unlimited out-of-combat healing would a DM allow?

[skydragonknight]

For a Melee, Crusader has more synergy as a dip than Dread Necro and still provides unlimited out-of-combat healing. I've also heard Lawful Incarnates are good defensively and an Azurin who takes Bonus Essentia can benefit a lot from even just a couple levels. I'm not an expert on that though (Sinfire Titan is, but haven't seen him lately).

Other than targeting "an ant or something", what unlimited out-of-combat healing would a DM allow?

In the context of a solo non-caster, stretching the use of Martial Spirit stance to out-of-combat situations becomes less of an exploit and more of a practical means of survival. It would be no different really than a Dread Necro with Tomb Tainted Soul Charnal touching himself.

[bobthe6th]

...than a Dread Necro with Tomb Tainted Soul Charnal touching himself.

There is really no way for that ability not to sound dirty...

Though I could see just making crusader strikes at random objects, or fluffing it as performing the maneuver as a meditation ritual that heals... Though in a non single player context the DM is liable to disallow it if they want HP to be a limited resource.

[linklord231]

Take a look at Hellreaver from Fiendish Codex 2.  That + Crusader = one of the most efficient ways to do in-combat healing ever.  A level of Binder for Naberius would not go amiss on such a character, but you could get wands of Lesser Restoration if you didn't want to spend a level (get the Paladin version, it's cheaper). 

[CDTalmas]

...than a Dread Necro with Tomb Tainted Soul Charnal touching himself.

There is really no way for that ability not to sound dirty...

Though I could see just making crusader strikes at random objects, or fluffing it as performing the maneuver as a meditation ritual that heals... Though in a non single player context the DM is liable to disallow it if they want HP to be a limited resource.

And that's my thought process right there.  HP is very often a limited resource, though it will ultimately depend on the DM.

[Edit]

Take a look at Hellreaver from Fiendish Codex 2.  That + Crusader = one of the most efficient ways to do in-combat healing ever.  A level of Binder for Naberius would not go amiss on such a character, but you could get wands of Lesser Restoration if you didn't want to spend a level (get the Paladin version, it's cheaper).

...and that is pretty cool.  If you think you can make it work, you can reach level 5 in Hellreaver for the 2 CON damage to refill your fury points (assuming you didn't have enough by that point already) and then with the 9th level Heal ability every three rounds, you'd be golden.  Combine that with the Heal + Greater Divine Surge combo and then toss a Furious Strike boost for good measure (unless there's a better boost waiting for you).

[/Edit]

[bobthe6th]

Because if he lets wands of lessor vigor/CLW, he will probably be cool with OOC heal spamming. So I guess the dip is sort of situational...

[Cyclone Joker]

No, it isn't. Healing is cheap enough as is. There's no need to waste levels on it.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Ok, to clarify, I nearly break out in H.I.V.E. when I play a pure caster...

Funny ; I feel the same way sometimes.