Dwarf tankiness

[shuikage]

So the group i will be playing with doesn't have any real full up tank/lockdown specialist. I have been looking at making a dwarf going into a crusader/deepstone sentinel possibly. My only issue is that i would have to start out with a class from the Players handbook. Just wondering if you guys can help me out on choosing the best class for that and then helping me out on building the character up to be a tanky beast.

The world settign we will be in is kind of unique. The sun and moon are no longer around, the world is run by darkelves, all the gods have been either killed or imprisoned, and there are 2 people long forgotten but idolized as the only 2 gods around. One good and one bad. I know one of the guys is wanting to release the evil one. I will most likely go along the lines of helping him becuase it shall be a good time to release everything good and evil and see what happens.

 thanks alot in advance.

[jywu98]

A fighter dip could work if you are in need of feats. A paladin/cleric dip could work too if you want to go Ruby Knight Vindicator instead. However, due to your setting, RKV might not work as it requires you to worship Wee Jas.

[Cyclone Joker]

So the group i will be playing with doesn't have any real full up tank/lockdown specialist

Every time I see something like this, I die a little inside.

In 3.5, there is no such thing as a tank. There is no real way to pull aggro. This means that a tank is nonexistent, as there's nothing stopping you from forgetting the crap-goon with the chain and just trying to blitz the actually dangerous people. If you want to kill things in melee the only options are working on chunky salsaing the enemies or attempts at versatility. Or be a CoDzilla, but they can do both things just fine.

Or, in other words, don't bother. You'll fail, be frustrated, and end up less useful than a rogue, which is a pretty impressive feat in the sheer level of unimpressiveness..

[shuikage]

Cyclone i know that there isn't any real aggro pulling in 3.5. The way my DM is once your in combat with someone they tend to stay on you. Im just looking for more of the lockdown specialist and from what ive looked at with the tome of battle with the crusader and what not is that you can lock down people pretty well and stay very surviable in the mean time.

[Gribel]

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 gives you Improved Trip without having to get Combat Expertise, thus making your Int a dump stat. Although Stand Still is generally more reliable for a medium character, Improved Trip is more offensive and may be used reliably against medium or smaller targets.

[muktidata]

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2 gives you Improved Trip without having to get Combat Expertise, thus making your Int a dump stat. Although Stand Still is generally more reliable for a medium character, Improved Trip is more offensive and may be used reliably against medium or smaller targets.

Two ranks in Knowledge (Rashemen) and some role playing/pre-game character history gives you access to the Wolf Berserker lodge feat. +4 to trips and meets pre-reqs for Improved Trip.

[Endarire]

If you're dead-set on going Deepwarden, Ranger3 works well.

[Cyclone Joker]

Cyclone i know that there isn't any real aggro pulling in 3.5. The way my DM is once your in combat with someone they tend to stay on you. Im just looking for more of the lockdown specialist and from what ive looked at with the tome of battle with the crusader and what not is that you can lock down people pretty well and stay very surviable in the mean time.

Sigh...

Yeah, sorry, but lockdown doesn't work either. Short-range tactical teleportation is really easy and farts in the general direction of any attempt at "locking down," unless the one attempting it is a caster.

[InnaBinder]

Cyclone i know that there isn't any real aggro pulling in 3.5. The way my DM is once your in combat with someone they tend to stay on you. Im just looking for more of the lockdown specialist and from what ive looked at with the tome of battle with the crusader and what not is that you can lock down people pretty well and stay very surviable in the mean time.

Sigh...

Yeah, sorry, but lockdown doesn't work either. Short-range tactical teleportation is really easy and farts in the general direction of any attempt at "locking down," unless the one attempting it is a caster.

Your experience in this matter does not accurately reflect that of others of us who have found it to be a viable tactic.  That a counter exists to a given tactic does not invalidate the tactic as a whole; were that the case, there would be no viable tactics in 3.5.  That a given counter is commonplace in your experience does not make it commonplace in all (or even a majority - which is hard to judge given many players may not even post on forums) games.

[Solo]

The world settign we will be in is kind of unique. The sun and moon are no longer around, the world is run by darkelves

You must play the supreme ultimate dorf build which all dark elves fear.

Fistbeard Beardfist!

[Cyclone Joker]

Your experience in this matter does not accurately reflect that of others of us who have found it to be a viable tactic.  That a counter exists to a given tactic does not invalidate the tactic as a whole; were that the case, there would be no viable tactics in 3.5.  That a given counter is commonplace in your experience does not make it commonplace in all (or even a majority - which is hard to judge given many players may not even post on forums) games.

You seem to have trouble with the difference between "fact" and "opinion." What I said was the former. It doesn't work. What, are you going to seriously try to lolspikedchain a dragon, or caster, or even decently-equipped NPC? Yeah, everyone and their zombified demon-rats(And by that I mean Chihuahuas) has a way around it. "Locking down" simply does not work. Unless you're going to claim that being able to stomp mooks who need 20s to even hurt you is an accomplishment, in which case  .

[muktidata]

I'm sure he'll have plenty of opportunities to hit things. We're applying more common sense to the DM's critters than is likely used. If his experience in his play group is that melee characters under this DM are presented with enough situations where they get focused or are engaged in a land fight, then who are you to bitch and moan about his character choice, Cyclone? Otherwise, why would he want to play one? Don't assume to know more about how his DM runs his games than the poster does.

[Cyclone Joker]

I'm sure he'll have plenty of opportunities to hit things. We're applying more common sense to the DM's critters than is likely used. If his experience in his play group is that melee characters under this DM are presented with enough situations where they get focused or are engaged in a land fight, then who are you to bitch and moan about his character choice, Cyclone? Otherwise, why would he want to play one? Don't assume to know more about how his DM runs his games than the poster does.

Look, bro. I'm not talking about DM type or assumptions. I'm talking about objective fact. Being caught in a land fight won't help a BDSM  LOLsader. Nothing can prevent enemies from just skipping past and laughing at it. Plus, loltrip? Yeah, anything larger than Large just roflstomps the entire concept. So, sure, it can ROFLstomp mooks, but I really don't consider that much of an achievement. Do you?

It's huge investment for no real return. But, hey, if you think lying the OP and encouraging a crappy build is what should be done, that's fine. I, however, believe that objective facts are cool. So, you wanna lie? Fine. Just don't bitch at me to do the same.

[Agita]

There is, in fact, something that can stop monsters from moving past the fighter: The DM.

All of this is also irrelevant to the thread at hand. What you're doing is called threadshitting, CycloneJoker. General policy is that the poster knows better what they want than we do, and we help them optimize what they want to do. If you believe that's a pointless exercise, then don't post in a thread in the first place. You're getting both off-topic and blatantly insulting, so stop it.

[shuikage]

Ok well now that it went way off track for a while there but now back on it. The wolf totem barbarian to level 2 sounds like it would work out pretty well. My next question would be optimizing the feats for the crusader/deepstone sentinel and what to take at certain levels. thanks much.

[Risada]

Do you have anything in mind? Is tripping all you want to do? Maybe you want to use Stand Still as well as trip?

You need to give something more.... concrete to work with. Merely asking for a build may be easier for you, but not for us...

Now, for a rough build: Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Full bab class 4/Crusader 4/Deepstone Sentinel 5/Crusader +5 sounds reasonable. Main feats are Power Attack and/or Stone Power, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (from Wolf Totem Barb). Stance of choice would be Thicket of Blades.

From there, expand as needed.

[shuikage]

SOrry just very side tracked with some things. I would like to be the main front line fighter tripping, grappling, and holding things in place to keep them from getting to close to the squishies so they can do their job of blasting them to death.

[Jackinthegreen]

You usually don't want to be grappling if you expect someone to go 'splodey on what you're grappling.  They have a harder time aiming because you're in a grapple with something.  You might be able to get Improved Grab to work around that, but I can't be certain.  If you really want to grapple, SirPercival's grappling handbook might be worth a read.

If you go for tripping, make sure you can take the Knock-down feat.  That way you don't typically have to spend an attack on tripping, but tripping on its own might work better since it's a touch attack instead of against the target's full AC.

One of the common things done by optimizers is Lion Spirit Totem (Complete Champion) and Wolf Totem barbarian.  They have some slightly at-odds fluff, but they can be taken together since they replace different barbarian abilities.  Lion Spriti Totem allows you to make a full attack at the end of a charge in exchange for the barb's Fast Movement.  However, you might find the increased base speed from a non-lion barb to work better for you given your dwarf character.

You could go with a spiked chain for reach, but dwarves have the opportunity to trade their weapon familiarity (see rules in Complete Warrior 154-155) from the dwarven axe or dwarven urgrosh to the dwarven warpike (Races of Stone 155).  It's a reach weapon useful against charges and it can make trip attacks, but it doesn't allow attacking close stuff like a spiked chain does.  If you went with armor spikes you could still threaten your normal range while two-handing a reach weapon like the pike.  You won't get TWF penalties either.