Author Topic: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games  (Read 26535 times)

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #80 on: February 25, 2013, 12:55:37 PM »
I think using different races as stand-ins for different body types/upbringings is a good idea so far as it at least breaks up the mechanical homogeneity somewhat. Good luck explaining the sleep immunity, though.  :D


Quote
It comes down to trust and co-operation. If you all sit down and decide your world will be like Skyrim and everyone is cool with that when someone goes "So can I be a Dwarf?" you just have to facepalm. Your options then are to say "Will you reconsider" or "Let's have the entire group decide again what we want to world to be like"... so banning 1 player's choice seems easiest for all.

But Dwarves in Skyrim make perfect sense... they were just named from the perspective of the Giants. And are elves. And dead. XD

Offline Arturick

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Ascended Fatbeard
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #81 on: February 25, 2013, 02:28:23 PM »
Warforged seems like one of the least "portable" races in the D&D 3.5 world.  You might say, "How is a talking construct out of place damn near anywhere in a high magic, 3.5-y world?"

The Warforged were part of the historical and philosophical underpinnings of Eberron.  They existed not just to provide stats, but to open up role-play and questions about what constitutes life, what is the nature of self-determination, and what are the implications of creating sentient beings?  They are granted personhood via the Treaty of Thronehold, but have to figure out what motivates a being that can't eat, sleep, or reproduce.

If I'm not running an Eberron game, and someone asks me if they can play a Warforged, I'm saying "No."

Now, if you can tell me why you want to play a construct and how that fits into the game I'm running, then we'll talk.  A PC is a person.  Why are you a person and not a robot?  How were you created?  Are there more of you?  What was the purpose of your creation?

I'm going to demand something more than "Just wanted to play a robot" or "I wanted a 0 LA way to shed most mortal weaknesses."

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #82 on: February 25, 2013, 02:34:22 PM »
The exact backstory is hardly portable, but regardless of how you fluff it, wouldn't you basically end up with the same mechanical basis for any similar concept?  :huh

Offline Arturick

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Ascended Fatbeard
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #83 on: February 25, 2013, 02:56:48 PM »
Quote
The biggest thing you can do is trust your damn friends. Unfortunately not everyone is always on the same wavelength.

For the most part, my distaste for some of the weirder races isn't about trust...

EXCEPTION:  I assume anyone who wants to play a werefox is a sexual deviant.

It's more about empathy.  If your character isn't relatable, then I don't care what happens to them.  Look at how people of different religious, philosophical, and political persuasions have viewed each other over the course of human history.  Once we don't understand where the other person is "coming from," they become the "other." 

I have a screenshot somewhere of my Human Rogue WoW character standing in front of the glowing crystal thingy in the middle of Shattrath, with a word bubble over his head that says, "I guess it's easy to be 'good' when you're an immortal, asexual hunk of flying space rock."

I was listening to a podcast where, by the end of the campaign, the group consisted of an Inevitable, an Ogre Mage, a Centaur, and... something.  I don't remember, because I just didn't care anymore.  I needed a Luke Skywalker, a Marty McFly, or a Frodo to be the human face of the drama, and it wasn't there.  Hobbits are totally the "regular people" of Middle Earth that you're supposed to relate to more than the better-than-thou-warrior-races.  If Humans are the sympathetic, "normal" people in your universe, then Hobbits shouldn't exist.

If your weirdo alien IS relatable, then it so often feels like "Dragon Tits."  Why does your reptilian creature, or blue non-placental alien have boobs?  To be relatable in a really blatant and artificial way.  This character could just as easily be another human from a different culture, but it's an Argonian because FANTASY! or a Pandoran because SCI-FI!  And, you know, to dodge accusations of racism.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #84 on: February 25, 2013, 02:59:47 PM »
I would like to point out some fluff excerpts from Savage Species about integrating monsters in a campaign:

WITH MALICE TOWARD NONE-In this campaign mode, the prevailing opinion holds that monsters, no matter how foul and evil they may look, are free sentient beings with all the inalienate rights that humans, elves and every other humanoid species are heir to.
Humanoids aren't all jerks. If a monster is willing to talk instead of rampaging, they're willing to listen and negotiate.

CREATURE MANAGEMENT-Maybe this world lost the epic struggle against evil, the outcome of which is a lesser hell on earth, where villainy and every form of sin are simply common. Here, it is not that monsters represent anything new or good, but that they are the norm. To the victors go the spoils, as the saying goes, and the monsters of this world can take some pleasure in it. Imagine what differences would result when manticores and fire giants freely walk the streets, peacekeepers
that enforce the law of monster rule.
Monsters are stronger, smarter and have fancy powers. Puny humanoids should be glad if a monster is willing to colaborate with them.


THE PEOPLE OPPRESSED-Carefully guarded and controlled by force of arms and sorcery, the monsters that find employment within the cities are given grace to continue to live their miserable and cretinous lives, if they work hard and cause no trouble. Therefore, the sphinx may be trotted out at parties to tell its clever little riddles, but after that it is back to breaking rocks with its claws. Similarly, gargoyles serve as messengers, dryads as concubines, and displacer beasts as pets.

It then goes on how some monsters work with the system to don't rise any ruckus, while others try to be la resistance

THREATS AND OPPORTUNITIES-It is an oversimplification to posit that the conflict of monster against humanoid is so central, but in some campaigns or regions it could be. One kingdom could take the lawful/rejecting approach, while a neighboring kingdom is lawful/accepting. Given that one kingdom represses monster independence and the adjacent one is strongly influenced if not controlled by monsters, these two kingdoms probably do not care much for one another.

Basically it's a big world/multiverse. Just because one region hates monsters doesn't mean everybody everywhere hates them.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #85 on: February 25, 2013, 03:03:03 PM »
Umm... what, Arturick? Characters should be relatable or you won't care; but if they're inhuman and you can relate to them, you're saying it's blatant and artificial? Catch-22?  :huh


How does were-fox equate to sexual deviancy, too? O_o

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #86 on: February 25, 2013, 03:06:12 PM »
How does were-fox equate to sexual deviancy, too? O_o

Furries.  It seems there's a bit of an obsession with foxes (kitsune might be a part of that).

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #87 on: February 25, 2013, 03:13:09 PM »
You can blame Japanese myth for the whole fox association, going by kitsune. Now that they've been brought up, I wish I could actually use one of the damn things in something... as a bard, probably. Fits with the whole illusion theme. Though... they're not precisely lycanthropes, being 100 year old foxes that can assume human form. XD

Still not seeing the logic in automatically drawing sexual deviancy into it, though. :/

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #88 on: February 25, 2013, 03:22:25 PM »
As I mentioned, it's about the furry community.  Part of the reason they can be called sexual deviants is the allusion to bestiality.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13401
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #89 on: February 25, 2013, 03:26:46 PM »
As I mentioned, it's about the furry community.  Part of the reason they can be called sexual deviants is the allusion to bestiality.

Assuming that anyone who wants to be a fox person is a furry still doesn't make sense though.  Anyone who told my roommate that her love of foxes and her wanting to play cute little fox people made her a furry would get the shit slapped out of them.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #90 on: February 25, 2013, 03:27:55 PM »
But the chain of logic to get from were-foxes to bestiality requires rather a lot of assumptions. :/


... this discussion reminds me that there are domestic foxes. Adorable things!

Offline Jackinthegreen

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 6176
  • I like green.
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #91 on: February 25, 2013, 03:38:08 PM »
But the chain of logic to get from were-foxes to bestiality requires rather a lot of assumptions. :/


... this discussion reminds me that there are domestic foxes. Adorable things!

Well, you know what is said about ass/u/me.  And yes, domestic foxes are adorable.

I of course don't agree with the chain of thought that wanting to play X race means, well, anything but wanting to play X race.  Unless of course I already know the person's tendencies.

Offline Raineh Daze

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10577
  • hi
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2013, 03:43:38 PM »
Strictly speaking, that's tamed, not domesticated. Domesticated means selectively bred to be naturally tame.

It only took about forty years, interestingly enough. Someone should try and breed domesticated monsters! :D

Offline Arturick

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 190
  • Ascended Fatbeard
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #93 on: February 25, 2013, 04:30:47 PM »
Umm... what, Arturick? Characters should be relatable or you won't care; but if they're inhuman and you can relate to them, you're saying it's blatant and artificial? Catch-22?  :huh


How does were-fox equate to sexual deviancy, too? O_o

I read a series of books called "The Dungeon," by several authors coordinated by Philip Jose Farmer.  The main character is a British army officer named Clive.  At one point, Clive is travelling with a giant, slightly anthropomorphic spider and an alien cyborg.  Clive comes to respect, and ultimately love, both of these aliens, but acknowledges the irreconcilable differences between them.  The spider kills and eats her mates, who are also sentient beings, but that is just how she is wired.  The cyborg will absorb machines and sentient beings to add to his personal power and intelligence, because that is the way his kind advance themselves.  The characters are definitely still alien, but you view them through Clive's eyes.  I would not read a book about the spider and the cyborg going on adventures together.

Now the smurfs from Avatar were just blue people with a more intimate way of having sex that can totally be shared with humans if we just get a few modifications and machines involved.  The Elder Scrolls Argonians are just put upon slave folk, and isn't that a shame because it's immediately obvious that they're just like the rest of us once you get past the scales.  "Yes, I lay eggs and bury them in the mud, which would imply a different family structure than... oh, here comes my beloved daughter and husband."

The only reason I can tolerate dwarves and elves is because they're such staples of the genre that you don't even think about it anymore.  As has already been suggested, they can, in many campaigns, be seemlessly translated into humans with certain proclivities.

"Hrmp," sniffed the Brit-Elf, "I've had to stand at attention for hours listening to the nobles give speeches about grain harvests and sewer works.  It will take more than petty magics to make me fall asleep."

Also, I'm falling down, barely functional tired right now, but trying to look productive at work.  Must... get... sleep apnea...  treated...  Ahem.  Sorry if I'm rambling.

Now, if the player wants a truly alien character and the rest of the group wants to roleplay the ensuing, awkward interactions, that's one thing.  If the whole party is Bob the Minotaur, Suzy the Medusa, and Ricky the Rakshasa, all of whom have exemplary table manners and Midwestern accents...  Bleah, dragon-tits.

As for were-foxes:  Bias based on experience.  Multiple examples of type.

And, you know, like I said in the OP...  These are just my personal biases based on the sort of stories I like in games that I run, play in, or am some sort of audience for.

Offline wotmaniac

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1586
  • Procrastinator in Chief
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #94 on: February 25, 2013, 06:55:29 PM »
I took this thread to be initially about what are the arguments for and against D&D's standard smorgasbord/cosmopolitan approach.
You're right, but I'd point out 2 things:
1) we're well past the first page or two, so I'd say all bets are off ,
2) It's still addressing the underlying issue.  Boiling it down to stricter terms gets to the heart of the issue more directly.


Umm... what, Arturick? Characters should be relatable or you won't care; but if they're inhuman and you can relate to them, you're saying it's blatant and artificial? Catch-22?  :huh
I think that he's more saying that it's most often done in a hamfisted and disingenuous way .... thus triggering a default skepticism.

Quote
How does were-fox equate to sexual deviancy, too? O_o

AD&D, Werefoxes
Quote from: AD&D MM
Foxwomen dwell in lonely woodlands far from humanoid communities. Their homes may be hidden cottages or comfortably furnished cave complexes; in either case their homes are filled with typical human comforts. Foxwomen are solitary in regard to their own kind. They are self-serving, vain, and hedonistic. Foxwomen serve their vanity by enslaving humanoid males. Those males become servants and companions.
It's a metaphor.

Offline Nytemare3701

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1657
  • 50% Cripple, 50% Awesome. Flip a coin.
    • View Profile
Re: I Don't Like Weird Races in My Games
« Reply #95 on: February 26, 2013, 07:31:31 PM »
Personally, I love having interesting new races around IF PLAYED APPROPRIATELY. We had an Obah-Blessed Half Dragon Awakened Shield Golem, and we just said he was a Warforged with some customizations (wings, draconic facial features, extra arms that are generally kept folded and out of sight).

Right now I'm playing a Warforged Scout (which by the way sucks in every way possible for the character) because I wanted to be a small-sized robot. I'm tagging along with the PsyWar as his "homunculus", doing his crafting for him and generally providing RP opportunities with my Wis 4/Int 18 outlook on life. From this unique character perspective, I get to do all kinds of things that would have been just plain weird otherwise, like crafting a packmate and RIDING IN IT. Sure, I get some weird looks from the townsfolk, but as long as I don't show any initiative they assume I'm a construct created by the PsyWar. These kinds of RP situations are fun and engaging for everyone involved IF DONE RIGHT.

On the other hand, excessive templating or strange race selection should be VERY well justified and should provide OPPORTUNITIES. This is a cooperative game, and making character choices that are detrimental to the RP of the game isn't ok.