Considerations on a Cleric

[Kreuz]

Hi!

This paragraph is just some background, you can ignore it at will.
So, I'm playing D&D for the first time... and decided to make a Dwarven Cleric. At first, I wanted to make it a crafter of magic items (reckless as a first char ever, I know), but the rolls were average so I had to go for something else, but sticked to using a Dwarven Cleric. Documenting myself, I found Divine Metamagic, so, I said "let's do that".

This is no longer background, I guess

The Dwarven Cleric (After racial):

Abilities:
STR: 13
DEX: 11
CON: 18
INT: 9
WIS: 15
CHA: 10

Skills: Concentration(WIS) 4

Domains: Planning, Undeath

Feats: Extend Spell (Planning), Extra Turning (Undeath), Persisent Spell

I was thinking about using it as a healer/secondary melee, and getting Divine Metamagic to Persist a buff on the Tank and later on Persisting buffs for the whole party. However, I discovered that I was the Tank, since the other characters are 3 casters and a Rogue, so I guess I will be facing a lot of combat.

That is as far as documenting has taken me. We are using Core classes, no Multiclassing, which also means no Prestige classes, the books we are using are PHB of course, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Spell Compendium, and anything from other sources requires checking it with the DM. Also, the DM said that even though I am a Good Cleric, I am free to use [Evil] spells.

Here is where I am not sure about what could I use later on.

I could later on get an animated shield so I use a weapon two-handed. I was considering Two Weapon Fighting, but it looks like it is not much of a good option for this character, since it lacks Dex. I am currently using a Dwarven Waraxe and a Heavy Shield. In this aspect I am still somewhat clueless, about how to become an effective warrior by methods other than divine buffs (Dispel is a concern, specially because it can take away my precious Persisted Spells...)

I was also thinking about Pool of Healing, but I haven't spoken with the DM about it yet.

Is getting two more Extra Turning feats worth it? so I can Persist 2 spells, but still, it will be 4 feats out of seven dedicated to DMM... still, I don't know what to use the rest of the Feats for.

The negative Int modifier has me worried quite a bit. I am sacrificing skills, even though 2+Int looks like the Cleric isn't much of a skill freak. Is there something else I am losing with an Int penalty?

I know there is much more out of my scope, and that's why I wanted to ask for help, on making an efficient PC with these characteristics.

Any comment is much appreciated.

[Rebel7284]

You have one of the best classes for tanking, so no worries there.

What level are you starting at?  Do you have access to Player's Handbook 2?

[Jackinthegreen]

Regarding your Int score, skills shouldn't be too much of an issue.  I'm more fond of skillfull characters since skills open up new ways of interacting with things, but so long as the other three casters have decent skills they can probably shore up the knowledge checks.

Speaking of other casters, what classes are they?  If one is a druid, the druid's animal companion (and later the druid himself via Wild Shape) can make excellent tanks and damage dealers if the animal choices are good.

Your Wisdom likely isn't good enough to get much out of spells with saves.  Sticking to buffs and no-save effects will work best for you.

Two-weapon fighting is a trap for pretty much everyone without bonus damage dice like a rogue's Sneak Attack.  Two-handed fighting via Power Attack will work much better.  Clerics can get some good work out of it thanks to things like Divine Power and some turn-based feats.

Since you have Summon Monster I on your list, you could also persist that and hope whatever you summon manages to stick around throughout the day.  You have access to Evil spells apparently, so you could summon an Evil creature too if that suits your fancy better.

[Rebel7284]

Since you have Summon Monster I on your list, you could also persist that and hope whatever you summon manages to stick around throughout the day.  You have access to Evil spells apparently, so you could summon an Evil creature too if that suits your fancy better.

This doesn't work.  Summon monster spells do not have fixed or personal range.   I will give a list of good spells later.

[Kreuz]

You have one of the best classes for tanking, so no worries there.

What level are you starting at?  Do you have access to Player's Handbook 2?

I actually was asking that earlier, we begin at level 1 and yes, we can use PHB2. The game is "hot", as in, it has already begun and is running.

I was wondering if pool of healing would be worth it for the tanking as well... being a health dispenser would give not only me, but also the others, quite a lot of survivability between combats. I am not fond of the feats that deal with healing, since I feel that healing a great amount is wasted if it spills beyond complete hit points. Pool of healing seems to offer... control. But it is still justa thought, it is still a long way until level 7.

Regarding your Int score, skills shouldn't be too much of an issue.  I'm more fond of skillfull characters since skills open up new ways of interacting with things, but so long as the other three casters have decent skills they can probably shore up the knowledge checks.

Speaking of other casters, what classes are they?  If one is a druid, the druid's animal companion (and later the druid himself via Wild Shape) can make excellent tanks and damage dealers if the animal choices are good.

Your Wisdom likely isn't good enough to get much out of spells with saves.  Sticking to buffs and no-save effects will work best for you.

Two-weapon fighting is a trap for pretty much everyone without bonus damage dice like a rogue's Sneak Attack.  Two-handed fighting via Power Attack will work much better.  Clerics can get some good work out of it thanks to things like Divine Power and some turn-based feats.

Since you have Summon Monster I on your list, you could also persist that and hope whatever you summon manages to stick around throughout the day.  You have access to Evil spells apparently, so you could summon an Evil creature too if that suits your fancy better.

Yeah, I wanted to take a skilled char (even though it was just 2+Int) but that 9 had to go somewhere so... its a shame.

There is a Druid, a Wizard, a Sorcerer and the previously mentioned Rogue. The Druid has an eagle animal companion.

About the Wis, I was thinking buffs and no-saves, or those with a lesser effect when the save succeeds.

About TWF, I haven't found a way to make it work properly... maybe weapons that carry effects beyond plain damage?

Hm... I was wondering... Spell Compendium has Dragon Breath, which has Personal range... Persistent Dragon Breath? a breath weapon every 1d4 rounds sounds good, but being a 5th level spell, I guess there is better stuff laying around?

Since you have Summon Monster I on your list, you could also persist that and hope whatever you summon manages to stick around throughout the day.  You have access to Evil spells apparently, so you could summon an Evil creature too if that suits your fancy better.

This doesn't work.  Summon monster spells do not have fixed or personal range.   I will give a list of good spells later.

Much appreciated.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

The bold background warning is awesome

[Jackinthegreen]

Since you have Summon Monster I on your list, you could also persist that and hope whatever you summon manages to stick around throughout the day.  You have access to Evil spells apparently, so you could summon an Evil creature too if that suits your fancy better.

This doesn't work.  Summon monster spells do not have fixed or personal range.   I will give a list of good spells later.

I thought I was forgetting something.  Thanks for clearing it up!

[Rebel7284]

As promised here is the more detailed reply.

Some general tips
- The number of turn attempts you have increases if your charisma increases even temporarily.  A simple Eagle's Splendor before you start persisting your spells can make a difference.
- The way Persistent Spell interacts with Extend Spell is curious.  Multiple times in the FAQ, Wizards have stated that when applying multiple effects, you should stack it in a way that is most beneficial to the creature using the effect.  This means that a spell that is both extended and persisted lasts 48 hours. Nice to know considering that you have the extend spell feat AND the rods of extend are so cheap! Some DMs consider this too powerful, so it may be worth it confirming what yours thinks.
- Check out if your DM is OK with the item Nightstick from Libris Mortus.  It's an item that gives you 4 more turning attempts (each).  Again, possibly overpowered at later levels.

Levels 1-2
The earliest of levels are pretty random.  Having your high constitution is useful, hopefully avoiding accidentally dying to a random critical from a critter.
Healing is actually useful here before you can afford healing items.  Still, as with all levels, in-combat healing is usually a bad idea.  Kill the opponents faster so you have to heal less.

Levels 3-4
Oh hey, your main ability comes online.  You have a nice offensive option at this level - Cloud of Knives from PHB2.  A free ranged attack ALL DAY is pretty nice.  Using your caster level + wisdom to hit makes it pretty nice, no need to worry about Dex.
In addition, at this level you get the spell Close Wounds [SpC] that allows you to heal at range as an Immediate action, so you can lay down the pain while still having the option to heal if it's urgently needed.  Optimal use of actions is nice.

Levels 5-6
Take another Extra Turning feat at level 6, a reliquary holy symbol from Magic Item Compendium, and remember to cast Eagle's Splendor to boost you to 2 persistent spells (4 with a lesser rod of extend!)
Here here you surge ahead in power, there are so many great level 3 spells to persist!
Ice Axe [SpC] - 2d12+5/6 TOUCH attack that still allows you to keep a hand free for a shield!?  You can make the Axe disappear if you need the hand for something else too.
Darkfire [SpC] - Similar to Ice Axe.  Starts off dealing less damage, but can be used at range.  Nice to have the option to switch to this if your DM starts sending creatures with resistance to cold against you.
Mass Lesser Vigor [SpC] - Give your whole party fast healing 1 all day.  Completely removes the need for out of combat healing.  Also, auto-stabilizes anyone who gets put into the negatives.  In case of long combats, even the 1 point per turn can add up.  Very useful spell to persist.
Channeled Divine Shield [PHB2] - The "drawback" of taking two rounds to cast for the optimal effect is kind of a joke if it's lasting all day.  Remember, 10/Evil can only be overcome by evil aligned WEAPONS, the alignment of the creature using the weapon is irrelevant.  Not too many aligned weapons in the early game.
Divine Retaliation [PHB2] - Not sure if this spell will work for you as you do not have a deity listed, but it can be pretty nice.  More free attacks are good, right?
Prayer - Your party gets a +1 bonus to nearly everything
Ring of Blades - You probably don't want to use this, you may need to walk near an ally, but the image of doing this is amusing to me.
Summary:
Combining Divine Shield + Mass  Lesser Vigor + judicious Close Wounds makes you exceedingly difficult to bring down in combat while you keep wailing on your opponents with touch attacks from a weapon of choice.

Levels 7-8
Your power grows rapidly, turning you into a combat monster.
Divine Power - Oh look, full BAB (more attacks) and +6 Strength all day. 
Holy Transformation [SpC]- Nice fly speed, nice boosts to Str/Con/Saves.
Infernal Transformation [SpC]- Replaces the fly speed with a free attack on a full attack. Nothing stopping you from using both transformations together either.
Consumptive Field [SpC]- This spell is really really evil, but oh so powerful when persisted.  Go out and kill some chickens/squirrels, and watch your Strength reach ungoldy numbers and your caster level soar.  May make your DM Sad....
Summary
High Maneuverability + Full BAB + Your choice of wonderful options from the previous 2 levels.  You may need to invest in a normal rod of Extend Spell though.

Levels 9-10
More numerical bonuses.  Hopefully you have at least one nightstick so you can get a third persistent spell more easily.
Righteous Might - More reach, more STR, more CON.  Nice how these bonuses stack with pretty much everything.
Righteous Wrath of The Faithful [SpC] - Remember, you are your own ally. Free attacks for everyone all day and more bonuses to hit/damage
Summary
You win slightly harder.

Will cross reference my high level build later and check books.  This should last you most of the campaign

[Kreuz]

Thanks for the list, there is a lot I hadn't seen!

I haven't mentioned Libris Mortis, because it looks like he lets us use a book if everyone is requiring something from it. I will check about that later. Will have to do the same about Lesser Rod of Extend... it is PathFinder, right?

Checking the rods... they seem to have the same effect. Lesser, normal, and Greater... what is the difference between them?

I was thinking about using a non-metamagical Shield Other to circumvent healing one of my partners... but I guess that can turn ugly very fast...

Ice axe looks great. I had read about Darkfire, but Ice Axe really packs a punch.

Wait. With a rod of extend spell, Eagle's Splendor and a Reliquary Holy Symbol I can get for two days... Ice Axe and Cloud of Knives? And I can persist some other stuff the next day. that's... that's awesome.

Ring of Blades gives some more damage... but persisting it doesn't look like a good idea, since I have to interact with much more than just enemies. And I don't think it is dismissable?

Later, I think I will get a Ring of Counterspells and get Dispel Magic in there. I am still a little paranoic about it.

[Rebel7284]

Lesser rod of extend is in the dungeon master's guide. Also here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicExtend

Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods
Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.

And yup, 4 spells running all day every day is coming up soon even with your low starting charisma.

For protecting against dispels:
Ring of Enduring Arcana is good.
Increasing your caster level is good too (Bead of Karma is popular, note the prices are broken in the original printing).
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads

I remember there is a Dispel Shield somewhere that helps by being dispelled first, but away from books right now.

edit: I would avoid using shield other.  Save the level 2 slot for the emergency close wounds, and "heal" by murdering the attacking creature with your Ice Axe before it deals more damage.

[Kreuz]

Alternatively, I can get a Wizard in my backpack who casts Lesser Globe of Invulnerability...

Jokes aside, I read something about Complete Scoundrel, six hidden weapons, and enhancements on each... You know, as a last resource in case it all comes down to magicless melee. Heck, I was even thinking about putting up AMF, and charging the caster that dispels me...

[Kreuz]

Hm... I am starting to consider Dragontouched and Initiate of Bahamut... with Pool of Healing, I would be basically a mini-Paladin. Guess I would have to start praising Bahamut.

And Draconic Aura.

Now I am thinking too much, I guess xD

[Rebel7284]

Hm... I am starting to consider Dragontouched and Initiate of Bahamut... with Pool of Healing, I would be basically a mini-Paladin. Guess I would have to start praising Bahamut.

And Draconic Aura.

Now I am thinking too much, I guess xD

While you certainly can do this, it seems a pretty suboptimal use of feats if you are also trying to be a tank. 
As far as healing goes: Fast Healing 1 should be enough on most days, and healing belts are cheap. 
As far as the smite attack goes: a few extra points of damage a few times a day is pretty tame. 

You can take Power Attack later if you feel you really need more damage, but focus on getting your persisted spells going first.

[Kreuz]

Hm... considering I am surrounded by casters, shall I get Spellcraft? in that case I would have to get a +1 to INT, so I get rid of the penalty and gain another skill point per level, to raise Spellcraft and Concentration...

I'm taking Power Attack after DMM, unless I get the items to complete a second DMM'ed Persistent per day.

[Rebel7284]

Hm... considering I am surrounded by casters, shall I get Spellcraft? in that case I would have to get a +1 to INT, so I get rid of the penalty and gain another skill point per level, to raise Spellcraft and Concentration...

I'm taking Power Attack after DMM, unless I get the items to complete a second DMM'ed Persistent per day.

Being surrounded by casters is exactly why you likely don't need spellcraft.  Someone else on your party can identify magical effects and yell it out.  Spellcraft becomes important once you are crafting epic spells, but worrying about level 21 when you are level 1 is looking a bit too far ahead IMO.

[Kreuz]

Being surrounded by casters is exactly why you likely don't need spellcraft.  Someone else on your party can identify magical effects and yell it out.  Spellcraft becomes important once you are crafting epic spells, but worrying about level 21 when you are level 1 is looking a bit too far ahead IMO.

Yup, I was getting to that point, actually. All the other casters have Spellcraft... and Concentration looks like something noone can take for me. I was asking if there is any situation that would require me specifically to have spellcraft, but looks like it's not the case.

Now... I am thinking about Shielded Casting, as I think there will be a moment in the immediate future where I'll have to cast while taking flak. I could keep pumping Concentration with my 1 skill point per level, and get Skill Focus on it so my spells are less likely to be interrupted, which is 1 less feat, but the AoOs will still be hitting me... Having the shield "Ready" means equipped, or is it a broader term?

[Rebel7284]

Casting Defensively
If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell you’re casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.

You have high Constitution, the check quickly becomes trivial.  Also, quickened spells (such as close wounds) do not provoke.

[Janthkin]

Now... I am thinking about Shielded Casting, as I think there will be a moment in the immediate future where I'll have to cast while taking flak. I could keep pumping Concentration with my 1 skill point per level, and get Skill Focus on it so my spells are less likely to be interrupted, which is 1 less feat, but the AoOs will still be hitting me... Having the shield "Ready" means equipped, or is it a broader term?

You're going to be using Defensive casting (Concentration check: DC 15 + spell level), rather than provoking AoOs & trying to cast through the damage.