FotF/SUS/Monk's Belt Stacking

[DMCuindless]

Hey Everyone, a player in my group wants to make a unarmed strike fighter without taking levels of monk. She's looking at Fist of the Forest, but wants to know how that stacks with Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monk's Belt. I've searched this board, looked at FAQs and Errata, and consulted "Ask the Sage" but can't seem to find how this all works together. Can one of you direct me to the proper resources and/or answer the question: If she has 3 levels of FotF, a Monk's Belt, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed), and Superior Unarmed Strike, what is her unarmed strike damage?

[SorO_Lost]

Firstly some background information to help you rule on things later on.

(click to show/hide)

Does a monk with a monk’s belt and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest benefit apply?
In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other.

Through the RC kind of lampshades this when it brings up all alternative power sources obey the general stacking rules. And while Feats are not named explicitly, many Feats provide such power sources or magical effects to begin with making it an area that needs DM adjudication in the more grey areas. This ruling is kind of a kick in the nuts for me but I can see where they are going with it, Unarmed Damage can reach silly amounts and by preventing stacking effects like that you not only nerf a needed area but you also bring back value to actually using the Monk Class to make an unarmed focused build.

Now Fist of the Forest is by RAW not that helpful and it's a very limited if-than-else. At the 1st level you deal 1d8 unless you already deal that then it progresses per Monk which unfortunately means if you already deal more than that it the entry is silent on the issue. A little patchwork from intent and it simply bumps you up per Monk.

And finally you apply the Monk bonuses then Size bonuses, and this isn't a hard rule the controller of the Effects can stack them in the most favorable order but there really isn't any details on a "Huge Monk" progression and Monk is unique in that it can upgrade to d10s even through normal size progression doesn't.

Do you think you have the answer now?

(click to show/hide)

The 1d3 base is replaced by the Monk's Belt which improves your Unarmed to 1d8.
FotF 1 improves this per Monk to 1d10.
FotF 3 improves this per Monk to 2d6.
Improved Natural Attack improves this per Size to 3d6.
SUS simply doesn't apply and assuming the worst case in that you or your DM rules Greater Mighty Wallop doesn't stack with IM-NA your end result is 8d6 which really isn't bad. It's four times the highest value of a printed weapon for Medium Creatures.

[DMCuindless]

Yes! Thank you! I think I'm going to go with what I interpret as RAI with this. So, at 3rd level, an FotF does 1d10 unarmed damage. SUS and Monk's Belt together gives the equivalent of a 9th level monk, which would also be 1d10. So, since your unarmed strike already does 1d10, FotF would bump it to 2d6. Take off the Monk's Belt and it would go down to 1d10 since SUS only gives 1d8 up to level 11. The only discrepancy then would be after level 16 where SUS alone gives 2d6. I feel like FotF and a Monk's Belt should give SOME advantage over just having a feat... I might bump it to 2d8 with all three.

[SorO_Lost]

I feel like FotF and a Monk's Belt should give SOME advantage over just having a feat.

It's your call, prior to the FAQ (and just about every time I forget about it) I would have ended up with 2d8 before the size modifications. Just keep an eye on your group, if she looks like she'll pass everyone up if she nabs Wallop try to convince her not to outshine everyone else.

Also, have your player check this post out. The flavor is done as the Matrix movies, but fundamentally a couple good ACF choices as a Monk can make you really powerful if you like the idea of a stealthy/invisible One-Punch Man.

[Solo]

Hey Everyone, a player in my group wants to make a unarmed strike fighter without taking levels of monk. She's looking at Fist of the Forest, but wants to know how that stacks with Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monk's Belt. I've searched this board, looked at FAQs and Errata, and consulted "Ask the Sage" but can't seem to find how this all works together. Can one of you direct me to the proper resources and/or answer the question: If she has 3 levels of FotF, a Monk's Belt, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed), and Superior Unarmed Strike, what is her unarmed strike damage?

Why not use.... THE HAO HAN!

[DMCuindless]

That's an interesting class, to be sure, but here's the thing: The player in question is my wife. If I start allowing homebrew stuff for her, the other players might (rightfully) question my impartiality. I've also had a pretty strict "no homebrew" policy at my table, so there would be a lot of doubt if I'm suddenly letting in homebrew classes for my wife to play.

[Vladeshi]

That's an interesting class, to be sure, but here's the thing: The player in question is my wife. If I start allowing homebrew stuff for her, the other players might (rightfully) question my impartiality. I've also had a pretty strict "no homebrew" policy at my table, so there would be a lot of doubt if I'm suddenly letting in homebrew classes for my wife to play.

It's not actually homebrew, it is Barbarian with the serial numbers filed off.

[DMCuindless]

I'm... I'm an idiot.

[SorO_Lost]

I am amused. 

[DMCuindless]

She is taking levels of Barbarian, though. Specifically Lion Totem Barbarian for Pounce.

[DMCuindless]

Okay, so here's the build she's working with right now:

Neutral Human, S16 D13 C16 I13 W8 C10

1 Fighter - Jotunbrud, Improved Initiative, Power Attach
2 Fighter - Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Barbarian - Lion Totem Variant, Great Fortitude
4 Barbarian - +1 Dexterity
5 Fist of the Forest
6 Fist of the Forest - Superior Unarmed Strike
7 Fist of the Forest

And after that, it's pretty much open. Feats like Improved Natural Attack, Snap Kick, Hammer Fist, and Flying Kick improve unarmed damage, but what other classes would be good. I've consulted the Monk's Handbook for ideas, but nothing in there is quite what I'm looking for. Honestly, she likes Reaping Mauler. I know the Monk's Handbook says it's bad, but I can't see why. What am I missing?

[SorO_Lost]

Honestly, she likes Reaping Mauler.  I know the Monk's Handbook says it's bad, but I can't see why. What am I missing?

It's called masochism, she loves to punish her self.

Grapple fails because WotC handed Strength Bonuses out like candy to creatures, decided up to four HD could be handed out per CR increase, some how still felt that most of their creatures should be larger than humans, then they wrote some of the most complex rules to actually grab them and ensured that even if grappled those very same creatures would remain offensively uncaring because they can still use their Natural Weapons just fine, and finally the spit polished it with stuff like Freedom of Movement & minor forms of Teleportation to totally negate it's usefulness.

And a Human Invisible Fist Passive Way Monk 2 / Fighter 2 / Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / Fist of the Forest 3 gets Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attach, Improved Bullrush, Jotunbrud, Great Fortitude, Knock-Down, & Shock Trooper for Feats allowing it to fully ubercharge instead of not plus it gets Trip, and the ability to turn Invisible when needed and gets an extra Unarmed increase over the last build and better Saves and it doesn't need 13 Int. Adding "Monk" doesn't instantly make a build go bad, maybe try selling the build as it's own Ho Han and simply never tell her that her build has levels in Monk.

[DMCuindless]

Natural attacks while grappled. Freedom of movement. Okay, I see that now. Reaping Mauler is based around grappling, not unarmed strike, so it becomes useless beyond medium levels when monsters have natural attacks, FoM, Teleports, et cetera... That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for explaining that to me.

The problem with monk is the Lawful component. I know a lot of people on these boards don't really go for alignment restrictions, but I use them. I realize a few level of monk don't automatically sour a build, but I don't think she'll go for it. Thanks for all your advice.

[Shadowhunter]

Well there is the Chaos Monk in dragon magazine 335, page 89. It's forced to be Chaotic, if that's a problem. If we're talking 2 levels, the only difference is that the Chaos Monk gets Flailing Strike instead of Flurry of Blows.

Mechanically, they sort of work the same way, the only difference is that Flurry of Blows is automatically +1 attack and Flailing Strike gives anywhere between 0 and 3, as you roll a d4 and subtract 1.

Hrrm... also, a flurry of blows needs to be used in a full attack action, while Flailing Strike requires you to use a full-round action. . . that might put a spanner in the works in some cases.

[SorO_Lost]

Thank you for explaining that to me.

Yeah but that's just Grapple on it's own, Reaping Mauler takes things to an impossible level.

So let's say you win Initiative and initiate a Grapple against a run of the mill 6th level Medium Sized Fighter with no extra BAB or fancy close-quarters weapons and successfully beat their check. You can then spend your remaining attacks as Grapple Checks to deal damage. So for instance if you have two attacks, one of them deals 0 damage dropping your damage-per-round to half compared to just about any other option.

You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack.

On his turn he can make not one but two attempts to escape on his turn, or hell maybe even three if they decide to try TWF I guess. Next round you go for the pin to activate Reaping Mauler's Class Features with at least a fourth successful check in a row and once again losing one of your attacks. Your opponent, whom must either have the worst luck ever with the dice, still gets his entire turn to try to break it again before he then has to make a Save or become helplessly unconscious. But the Save DC isn't calculated off your Super Saiyen Hulk Strength needed to get this far but your freaking Wisdom.

It pretty much only works on people you can already curbstomp to begin with.

Hrrm... also, a flurry of blows needs to be used in a full attack action, while Flailing Strike requires you to use a full-round action. . . that might put a spanner in the works in some cases.

Psst, a "Full-Attack" is a specific choice of your possible Full-Round Actions and uses it. In this context, they are exactly the same thing.

[Shadowhunter]

I'm aware of it being a full-round, I was just mildly concerned with whether or not you could use Flailing Strike with Pounce or not since my nitty-gritty-rules-interaction-knowledge isn't the greatest at times. RAI it's pretty clear that it should, though.

Since there's talk about Barbarians in here and Pounce is sort of a hallmark of them with how frequent Lion totem is used.

[SorO_Lost]

Since there's talk about Barbarians in here and Pounce is sort of a hallmark of them with how frequent Lion totem is used.

That's because a Barbarian without Lion Totem doesn't even deserve to be talked about, there is pretty much no use for the Class. Like you could pay into the feat tax to to make Rage contribute in a useful manner or alternatively you could actually be useful and simply pay into obtaining Rage. And even with Lion Totem it isn't that useful until you hit level 11 or so, it feels great at the 6th level because you have double the attacks but in truth you're missing out on a few damage multiplying Feats that Feat-granting Classes, such as the Monk or fighter, have the room to obtain.

[snakeman830]

Thank you for explaining that to me.

Yeah but that's just Grapple on it's own, Reaping Mauler takes things to an impossible level.

So let's say you win Initiative and initiate a Grapple against a run of the mill 6th level Medium Sized Fighter with no extra BAB or fancy close-quarters weapons and successfully beat their check. You can then spend your remaining attacks as Grapple Checks to deal damage. So for instance if you have two attacks, one of them deals 0 damage dropping your damage-per-round to half compared to just about any other option.

You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack.

On his turn he can make not one but two attempts to escape on his turn, or hell maybe even three if they decide to try TWF I guess. Next round you go for the pin to activate Reaping Mauler's Class Features with at least a fourth successful check in a row and once again losing one of your attacks. Your opponent, whom must either have the worst luck ever with the dice, still gets his entire turn to try to break it again before he then has to make a Save or become helplessly unconscious. But the Save DC isn't calculated off your Super Saiyen Hulk Strength needed to get this far but your freaking Wisdom.

It pretty much only works on people you can already curbstomp to begin with.

Hrrm... also, a flurry of blows needs to be used in a full attack action, while Flailing Strike requires you to use a full-round action. . . that might put a spanner in the works in some cases.

Psst, a "Full-Attack" is a specific choice of your possible Full-Round Actions and uses it. In this context, they are exactly the same thing.

All of this and you didn't mention that if you become any larger than Medium, you lose all of the Reaping mauler class features due to losing access to the prerequisite feat?

You're slipping, Soro.

[SorO_Lost]

You're skipping, Soro.

Yeah, the OP is already said he'll patch FotF so I figured there was a change he would probably patch Clever Wrestling too and simply moved on to how terrible it is.

[DMCuindless]

What's the general consensus on Bloodclaw Master? After Fighter2/LionTotemBarbarian2/FotF3, maybe take a level of Warblade and transition into Bloodclaw Master?