Author Topic: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities  (Read 16922 times)

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2013, 12:07:38 PM »
I have another limb besides the ones you mentioned...

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2013, 06:16:30 PM »
(ethereal)  Vestigial tail ?
 :)
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2013, 08:21:04 PM »
With respect, this is meaningless. By that logic, a character can do an unarmed strike "as a monk" then do another unarmed strike "as not-a-monk" in the same turn and get different game-mechanical results. What does that even mean?
It means one goes kung-fu and the other puts up his dukes.

Let know if something can find that 'any body part' extra rule for monks though. Otherwise it seems the fist, elbow, knee, feet rule seems to give monks an odd edge. If you count being able to melee an 'edge'. Ranged characters win dnd even without spells. :(

Offline Shareeth

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2013, 01:23:58 AM »
If Ward Cestus is just ammo, then even with +1 throwing returning it would do no damage? or would it be an effective ranged punch? I've seen it written as being both. Or does this fall into house rules?

Her method had the same effect and only cost 266,000 gp. I should point out that she ditched this shortly after figuring it out because, "She wants to look pretty." When someone pointed out that multiple strips of leather with "thumbs" would be gripping her various body parts and that would look, and I quote, "Hawt", she had what could only be described as a full body seizure, then promptly ditched the plan to buy multiple ward cestus.

I'd do the same. The group of guys that I play with would do the "Beevis and Butthead" laughs at me for wearing belts and straps all over my body. I'm not into S&M >:( Yet I think it should be do-able without the "thumbs" and belts. Might need an engineer to devise it though. Steel bracelets with hinged weapons? Although, that might require exotic weapon proficiency then... BUT, you wouldn't need the opposable feat!

Offline Captnq

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2013, 06:35:57 PM »
I'm not familiar enough with 3.0 weapon sizes and their conversion to 3.5 to make an informed call about the Ward Cestus trick, but she'd look rather silly whether it's RAW or not.  It's like stuffing both your hands into an oversized boxing glove, so that you can punch with both hands at the same time.

Or you just interlock your fingers and do the double hammer blow that Captain Kirk loves so much.

What book is the Opposable enchantment found in?

Masters of the Wild (3.0)

I have been asked to post said player's stats, but I have a policy of not posting a player's stats without permission.
Convenient.

Annoying. She started posting here and some idiot on this board insulted her on day one. Unlike me, she's a pleasant person. When she gets pissed off, she walks away. Alas, she's the defacto leader and if she don't like something, the rest of the players follow. She has made it clear she'd prefer I didn't post here at all, and said flat out, she'd quit playing if I post her character. I don't care if you believe me or not, it is also a moot point. The discussion is about what I post, not about the source.

Everyone I know that has dealt with Defending weapons, which is a small number, caps the bonus granted at 5, period, from all sources, as a house rule. Anything else than such a cap justifies an infinite number of bonuses, limited only by gold expenditure, since there are an infinite sources of unarmed attacks, shield spikes, etc. (Every entity, or at least every monk, has infinite sources of unarmed attacks RAW. I do not know where Opposable is from as a weapon property, but it is irrelevant to this concept.)

As I have stated, I am playing an unlimited campaign, and as such RAW rules. But so you know, she got bored with the concept and moved onto something else.

Throwing a quarter of a million gold at any melee concept will result in red-mist level of damage potential at arbitrarily high to-hit results. Monk can neither enhance nor diminish this concept.

If you can't figure out that with three different sources of WSAs that you would increase them equally, instead of max them out one at a time, you really have no place discussing Min/Maxing.


As for my point:
True, take any vanilla Monk and any vanilla fighter at a given level and the fighter will have the statistical edge. Monks have something other classes don't, which is they have exceptions. The Monk gets multiple sources of unarmed strike, whereas a fighter with Imp. Unarmed strike has two. It is these exceptions that allow for unique interactions with bizarre magic items nobody really ever considered. If I was playing a core only game, let me assure you, she'd not be playing a monk.

As such, I find her to be an excellent source of material for my handbooks, which in this case is currently the quintessential Handbook of weapons. Having read the many comments, I have heard a that one should house rule Defending, but that's about it. I haven't seen and coherant complaints, just questions.

If Ward Cestus is just ammo, then even with +1 throwing returning it would do no damage? or would it be an effective ranged punch? I've seen it written as being both. Or does this fall into house rules?

I'm not sure what Ward Cestus is, except that the reading allows it to stack with the other two sources of WSAs. I will say this, when re finally end this and start over with new characters, NOTHING from Dragon Magazine, EVER. And I think I will ban anything 3.0. Despite what WotC says about 3.0 being playable in 3.5, it's not. All the best exceptions come from interactions from 3.0 and 3.5 material.

Here. Since you seem curious as well... Opposable isn't a feat, it's a WSA.

Opposable
(click to show/hide)
If you have questions about 3.5 D&D, you might want to look at the:
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Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2013, 06:55:47 PM »
Quote
Annoying. She started posting here and some idiot on this board insulted her on day one. Unlike me, she's a pleasant person. When she gets pissed off, she walks away. Alas, she's the defacto leader and if she don't like something, the rest of the players follow. She has made it clear she'd prefer I didn't post here at all, and said flat out, she'd quit playing if I post her character. I don't care if you believe me or not, it is also a moot point. The discussion is about what I post, not about the source.

That seems a bad attitude for someone to have. 'You should stop frequenting this website because someone there once insulted me'? :eh

... what is a Ward Cestus? I mean, descriptively, not statistically? :huh

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2013, 06:59:09 PM »
I'm not into S&M >:(
You don't know what you're missing :p

Offline ketaro

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2013, 07:02:02 PM »

... what is a Ward Cestus? I mean, descriptively, not statistically? :huh

Quote
This is a stout leather gauntlet with a well-forged metal weight sewn into it over the knuckles. A strike with a ward cestus is considered an unarmed attack. If you take an All-Out Defense action, you gain an additional +1 deflection bonus to your AC, representing blows you block with the back of your protected hand. Your opponent cannot disarm you of a ward cestus. The cost and weight are for a single ward cestus.

Is what I found  :-\

Edit: Oh, Arms & Equipment Guide.

So basically its a glove, sized Tiny apparently, that doesn't enhance your unarmed attacks at all and merely provides a tiny bonus to AC with you Full Defense. It isn't really a weapon that does whatever damage your unarmed attack does from what I understand and thus become something as abuse-able as what the OP described. Least not without being incredibly lenient and house-ruling.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 07:08:12 PM by ketaro »

Offline linklord231

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2013, 01:06:54 PM »
I'm not familiar enough with 3.0 weapon sizes and their conversion to 3.5 to make an informed call about the Ward Cestus trick, but she'd look rather silly whether it's RAW or not.  It's like stuffing both your hands into an oversized boxing glove, so that you can punch with both hands at the same time.

Or you just interlock your fingers and do the double hammer blow that Captain Kirk loves so much.
Wouldn't that technically be striking with 2 Ward Cestae simultaneously?  Regardless, I don't think you can do it.  A Ward Cestus "is considered an unarmed attack."  That means you can't get the 2:1 PA benefits, because you can't get those with unarmed attacks.
What book is the Opposable enchantment found in?

Masters of the Wild (3.0)

Yeah, thanks, I found it.  I notice that you didn't address my complaint, which is that humans only have 4 limbs, and 2 of them are required for standing.  So the most "Opposable Ward Cestae" she can have is the same as the number she could have normally, which is 2.  I also notice that you have equally ignored my issue with Bracers of Striking, which is that by RAW they don't do anything

Throwing a quarter of a million gold at any melee concept will result in red-mist level of damage potential at arbitrarily high to-hit results. Monk can neither enhance nor diminish this concept.

If you can't figure out that with three different sources of WSAs that you would increase them equally, instead of max them out one at a time, you really have no place discussing Min/Maxing.

As for my point:
True, take any vanilla Monk and any vanilla fighter at a given level and the fighter will have the statistical edge. Monks have something other classes don't, which is they have exceptions. The Monk gets multiple sources of unarmed strike, whereas a fighter with Imp. Unarmed strike has two. It is these exceptions that allow for unique interactions with bizarre magic items nobody really ever considered. If I was playing a core only game, let me assure you, she'd not be playing a monk.

As such, I find her to be an excellent source of material for my handbooks, which in this case is currently the quintessential Handbook of weapons. Having read the many comments, I have heard a that one should house rule Defending, but that's about it. I haven't seen and coherent complaints, just questions.

It would be nice if you would properly attribute quotes before attacking my ability to Min/Max  :eh
Show me again where the Monk gets more "sources of unarmed strike" than a fighter?  The way I see it, a Monk only has 1 Unarmed Attack.  Same as the Fighter.  As has been brought up before, the Monk's Unarmed Strike ability doesn't add anything above and beyond what the IUAS feat already does - it just clarifies that Unarmed Strikes needn't necessarily be punches, for anyone. 

I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Rebel7284

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2013, 01:16:36 PM »
Kensai class implies that monks have two unarmed strikes.  However, that sort of contradicts the rules. :)

Offline linklord231

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2013, 01:44:16 PM »
Kensai class implies that monks have two unarmed strikes.  However, that sort of contradicts the rules. :)

It also appears to be under the assumption that Unarmed Strike is a natural weapon, which also contradicts the rules.
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Monk Optimization - Improved Unarmed Strike Weapon Special Abilities
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2013, 02:03:00 PM »
I'm not familiar enough with 3.0 weapon sizes and their conversion to 3.5 to make an informed call about the Ward Cestus trick, but she'd look rather silly whether it's RAW or not.  It's like stuffing both your hands into an oversized boxing glove, so that you can punch with both hands at the same time.

Or you just interlock your fingers and do the double hammer blow that Captain Kirk loves so much.

That requires a feat.