Best use(s) of Feral and or Lycanthrope template(s)?

[Argent Fatalis]

I have some general questions regarding the best uses of these two templates, with or without one another and what exactly they should be used with for a game that will most likely go to 7 at highest. This is not a high power game, a mock game, or anything in particular, and has no real min/max players in it, and the DM isn't particularly stingy and will work a valid concept, provided it isn't completely cheesy (Feral template is already pushing that).

1. Can these templates even be combined?

2. If I do make a character with either one of these templates, what gets the most mileage out of them (class wise) and truly plays to their strengths as far as the template features go when combined with a PC class? I am not looking to make a spellcaster out of this character (for fairly obvious reasons), but if there's some bizarre combination of features or feats that makes it valid, I'm certainly listening.

3. Is it ever worth considering both templates (do they have worthwhile synergy)? If so, which class would profit the most from both, or does it not differ from question 1?

4. In the case of the Lycanthrope template, Natural or Afflicted Lycanthropy as the template, based on questions 1 and 2 if they are valid? (As a note, I would prefer not to constantly make Control Shape checks, but it does offer roleplaying novelty, but it could be replicated in some veins with Natural Lycanthropy.)

5. What would be an "optimized" build given these questions? (If Lycanthropy is involved, the chosen beast in question is a weretiger, primarily for thematic reasons.)

6. If the templates cannot exist cooperatively, or outright pale in comparison to another combination of templates or classes (to get the same effect and general thematic ideal), what is the best build option then?

7. If all else fails, what is your suggestion given the design goals and preferences?

Preferences
- I am trying to favor true hand to hand combat given the strengths of both of these templates and the general idea of a "storm of claws".
- I am likely using a human character to accomplish this, but other races are valid suggestions for obvious reasons.
- I'd highly enjoy getting to exploit the up close and personal nature of such templates, especially if they have a particularly wicked synergy with a class. That said, I'm willing to take feats that would greatly improve the effectiveness of the already present abilities (such as the grappling elements of the Feral template, the claws present in either, the heightened senses, the defenses, etc), provided they're of obvious use (Improved Natural Attack).
- I'd be quite happy to have access to maneuvers, and Tome of Battle is certainly an option on the table.

I appreciate the input and the information; I tend to learn quite a bit every time I ask a question here, and it always ends up being of use.

[zook1shoe]

1- yes, lycantropy first. Otherwise you need another template turn you into a giant.

2- feral is one of the best templates in the game. Barbarians love this one.

3- really depends on the animal. Typically the best are high physical stat, low HD.

4- I prefer natural. You don't waste skill points w Control Shape. Plus have more overall control.

5- fyi, tiger is far from the best critter to get. My fav is an advanced Sewerm (Serpent Kingdoms) large snake w ~30 Str and is very grapple-oriented w a +16 racial bonus to grapple, attach, and blood drain. Get greater multi grab and some serpent arm grafts... You'll be unstoppable!

6- check out the Black Blood Cultist. With a grapple check, you deal damage from ALL your attacks simultaneously!!! There's several animals that have 8+ attacks.

feral is super powerful w its Pounce ability, primarily.

7- like I said, go for animals with a high ratio of stats vs. HD. Also check out the Tauric template, it has some similar features of lycanthropy. There's also a vermin version of lycanthropy for a straight +2 LA

[Nanshork]

You might want to check out The Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide, if nothing else it can help you decide on an animal form.

[Nunkuruji]

The interesting SAs from Feral come from monster HD, keep that in mind.

While I love Black Blood Cultist, Freedom of Movement just becomes a big FU to any grappler well before you hit the powerful features of BBC. So, you have to consider what kind of enemies your DM uses, whether FoM will become an issue, and then whether you need an antimagic amulet or some such.

[Argent Fatalis]

To zook1shoe:

1. Good to know, I had presumed it worked in that way. My next question is how other increases to the claws stack? Seeing as Feral is second, I will get the higher damage ones, but any additional overlays such as class and feats are on top of that? More or less to maximize that DPR.

2. Feral absolutely is one of the best templates; I've always wanted to play around with it, and this time around I have a shot to do that. But is it worth taking both Feral and Lycanthrope, and for what class? I've been looking over classes which already favor some heavy grappling melee, and Black Blood Cultist is definitely in there already, as is Barbarian and possibly some inclusion of Monk and or Swordsage.

3. Its likely something feline, and the tiger felt more appropriate, but if you have other suggestions for beasts of this same nature.

4. I like Natural more, for the reasons you stated about Control Shape ( I'm not likely to be a skill based class at all, so dropping points in Control Shape might eat up a lot of my resources), and the fact I'd have more durability for the character thanks to DR.

5. I will absolutely keep that in mind; given what is known, what classes favor this Feral/Lycanthrope/Class combo, or benefit more from Feral/Class or Lycanthrope/Class?

6. Absolutely was checking on that PrC.

7. Stats vs. HD, understood; as for Tauric and Vermin Lycanthropy, I'm avoiding both of them. I'm really looking at some combination of Feral/Class, Lycanthrope/Class or Feral/Lycanthrope/Class. I really do appreciate the information though!

To Nanshork:

I've actually just started flipping through that now as I reply, as you reminded me it existed, thank you!

To Nunkuruji:

Do these Animal HD from Lycanthropy qualify for the SAs? I mean the stats and claws are nice as is.

I'm not too worried about Freedom of Movement because the campaign is going to 7 at highest; if anything has FoM, its likely to be a boss or a creature we weren't' meant to fight. That said, he also tends to favor spellcasters as bosses for more obvious reasons, so its somewhat plausible.

[Nunkuruji]

Yeah, the Lycan Animal HD get you the special attacks with Feral, not your class HD.

What is your starting level/ECL? Are you going to use a Savage Progression?

If you're only playing up to 7th level, Pounce acquired from Feral is off the table

Lycanthrope Afflicted: Level Adjustment +2
Lycanthrope Natural: Level Adjustment +3
Feral: Level Adjustment +1

If you go with 1HD Class, 3HD Animal, +2 LA Afflicted Lycan, +1 LA Feral, you can't pick up Pounce with Feral (4HD+)
If you go with 1HD Class, 1HD Animal, +2 LA Afflicted Lycan, you can fit in 3 more class levels, Phynxkin doesn't look bad.


Be warned that due to the LA, and thus your fewer Hit Dice, you will perhaps be fairly susceptible to core Wizard spells such as Sleep and Color Spray that are based on HD scale.

[Argent Fatalis]

I figured as much, which works out particularly well as it provides synergy and based on the fact its Animal HD and not class.

Seeing as this character is a reservist (a back-up character), he's bound to be in the realm of level 3 to 5 unless I managed to get my main sniped somehow before then, which is doubtful.

Seeing as Pounce is difficult to acquire, I will probably run a Barbarian class with this character (for obvious reasons), or at least dip in it for the ACF Pounce and Rage. (Again, both thematically appropriate.) Though the overall design is still a claw and fang oriented melee combatant with the ability to take down with grapple when its favorable.

I'm willing to drop skill points hand over fist into Control Shape, but even then, there's no reason not to want to shapeshift unless you're say, in a crowded town full of city folk in a world where Lycanthropes aren't terribly welcome or some other similar situation. I can also live with getting less DR. Given that, the only slight kink in that idea is the fact the Animal HD have such low Skill Points, which is more irritating, but already thinking of going Barbarian, there's little for me to sink points in.

Seeing as 3 HD is the real option, Leopard keeps the goal of feline in mind and provides decent benefits.

I've yet to see a Wizard out of him, they're primarily Druids, Clerics, the occasional Warlock or a monster based spellcaster, but that's worthy of note.

Any suggested builds? For example, anything viable or favored by this combination? I've been trying to comb through base classes, with Barbarian being the most seemingly viable, but a single level of Monk or Swordsage might be, too, the latter especially given what the Consolidated Lycanthropy Guide has about it counting toward initiator levels as half.

[Jackinthegreen]

If you're playing up to level 7 at most, the LA will really hurt you.  Also note that if it was capped at level 7, you couldn't do a weretiger anyway unless you did a savage progression since tigers have 6HD.

Feral is likely your better option due to LA and such.  If you want more durability you could look into the Mineral Warrior template.  Mineral Warrior + Pounce barbarian can be pretty brutal.

If you're looking for natural attacks and such, perhaps Totemist would work for you?

[Nunkuruji]

Barbarian 1 / Lycan +2 / Feral +1 / Leopard 3

City Brawler Barbarian variant from DR349, trading Arm/Weap proficiencies for Improved Unarmed Strike
Lion Totem Trading Fast Movement for Pounce
Feats: Improved Grapple, Multi-attack

Animal Form: Pounce -> Rake, Imp Grab on Bite, Imp Grab on Claw
Hybrid Form: Pounce, Imp Grab on Claw

Still considered humanoid, so be sure to make use of Enlarge Person.

Perhaps a reasonable pouncer/grappler...

[Argent Fatalis]

That it will, and I was debating on Savage Progression, and I think it might be viable (and to a decent result). Something along the lines of the following as an example:

Animal "Class" (Tiger): Level +1
Savage Progression (Weretiger): LA +2
Feral Template: LA +1

Example Adjustments (Minus Class Features/Adjustments)
Total Character Level (without player class): 4
Levels Effectively Lost (Grant no HD/BAB/Saves/etc): 2
HD: 2d10? (According to Feral template all dice are converted to d10s)
Ability Score Adjustments: +6 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +4 Wis
Natural Armor: +6 (or +10? +4 Natural AC already present from previous Savage Progression/Animal Class)
Movement: +10 ft

Special Features:
- Shapechanger Subtype
- Monstrous Humanoid Type
- Low-Light Vision
- Dark Vision (60ft)
- Fast Healing 2
- Damage Reduction: 5/Silver
- Claw 1d8 (2d6 w/ Imp. Natural Attack [Claw])
- Claw 1d8 (2d6 w/ Imp. Natural Attack [Claw])
- Bite 1d8 (2d6 w/ Imp. Natural Attack [Bite])
- Imp. Grab
- Tiger Empathy
Bonus Feats:
- Alertness
- Improved Natural Attack [Bite]
- Improved Natural Attack [Claw]
Bonus Skills:
+4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks (When in tiger form and in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, his Hide bonus improves to +8.)
Save Adjustments:
-Fortitude +2    
-Reflex +2


Question(s):

1. Is the above correct? What errors (if any) are there?

2. What exactly does Improved Unarmed Strike improve for this sort of character? I'm just curious as to what exactly it effects. Do the claw/bite attacks provoke?

3. Given Imp. Grapple, does this wind up making features like Imp. Grab irrelevant (aside from boosting the grapple check itself?)

4. Is Barbarian the way to go for a claw/bite melee character, with access to grapples and grabs? Should I dip another class with it, and if so, which?

5.

If you're looking for natural attacks and such, perhaps Totemist would work for you?

- Possibly, I'll have to look into it, but I'm open to suggestions.
- Edit: Totemist looks particularly interesting, I just need read more about how exactly all of it works, and how it would interact with the overall idea of a melee grappler/pouncer/striker, all of which it seems to do well. I'm just not familiar enough with Incarnum to fully know what it does (Chakras, Essentia, etc).

[awaken_D_M_golem]

You don't have to take a Lycanthrope Racial
progression ALL at once.  You can take a level
or 2 now, and "promise" to Chronos you'll take
the rest of it later.

5HD + 2LA ... is not as good, as a focused build.
But you aren't asking for minmax deluxe, so it can work.
This could be Feral + the 1st level of a Lycanthrope class.

4HD + 3LA ... you really need to justify what's happening.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Totemist makes a good build or dip.
Incarnate makes a good skill monkey or dip, but that's not what you're doing.

Monk 2 / Totemist 2 / Pounce Barb 1 / Feral +1la / Wereteamjacob(-ish) +1la
... would work just fine, and even with little or no opt.

[Argent Fatalis]

This is a pretty low opt group; this character would be the most exotic and unusual of the bunch, which is likely to turn out with a Two-Weapon Ranger, a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Crusader. The last two of which are not optimized much, and the former two of which are barely at all.

My initial character is a Druid, and given the DM's love-hate relationship (he loves playing Druids, can't stand them when DMing) with the class, I figure I'll eventually hit the cutting block because I'm OP compared to the group (the Cleric is effectively the pocket healer) just by having a pet and access to summons.

Any recommendations other than Monk/Totemist/Barbarian? What's the validity of going Swordsage X/Barbarian 1/etc or Warblade X/Barbarian 1/etc? I've never heard of an unarmed Warblade or claw and fang fighter Warblade, but I'm not terribly familiar with things this exotic. Though admittedly, the Int penalty from Feral isn't too nice to the possibility of a Warblade, if that even exists.

[Jackinthegreen]

ToB has a PrC called Bloodclaw Master that you might want to look at.

However, if the game is going to be low-op then you might not want to do too much with ToB classes since they tend to freak DMs out.