How busted is the Druid if you remove Natural Spell from the game?

[wotmaniac]

Just what it says on the tin.

I was thinking on how the Shapeshifter variant is largely considered the "fix" for druids; which led me to think: "with Natural Spell no longer being a valid feat, what if you were just to take that feat out of the game, as opposed to messing with new class design?"

Thoughts?

[phaedrusxy]

It's certainly a kick in the chops, as it forces them to choose what to do in a given combat (cast or "fight"), and sacrifice daily uses of wild shape (and actions) if they need to change their mind. They'd still be solidly tier 1, though.

[wotmaniac]

Tier 1, simply because the options still exist?  Hence why the shapeshifter variant is Tier 2?
Okay, I can see that.

[FlaminCows]

Shapeshifter Variant Druid is still Tier 1. Druid has enough utility to hold the title even without Wild Shape.

Spontaneous Divine Caster Druid is the Tier 2 variant.

[ImperatorK]

Not at all.

[nijineko]

even without natural spell, master of many forms allows speaking, which is half the issue. i think it would not impact a skillful character builder / skillful player.

[wotmaniac]

Spontaneous Divine Caster Druid is the Tier 2 variant.

Ah -- that['s what I was thinking of ...  ... but then all the other druid goodies are still on line, so forgive my skepticism about the appropriateness of that ranking. (but let me get back to that in just a minute ...)

even without natural spell, master of many forms allows speaking, which is half the issue.

The other half being somatic components -- which is still a +1 MM feat.  + Eschew Materials.

So, a wizard is set up for this by 3rd-5th level -- then just take Arcane Thesis for every spell he plans on using while in polymorph.  Done.
Druids don't get to abuse MM the way arcane casters can (or even clerics).  Druids don't really have much in the way of 1-round encounter-enders -- their primary schtick is root-dot.
Sure, you can jump through an arbitrary # of hoops with just about any caster and end up as the end-all-be-all awesome-everything.  But that's apples-and-oranges -- I'm just talking about base classes at this point (shenanigans gotten through PrC-stacking is a PrC issue, not a base-class issue).

[Kethrian]

What I did to the druid class for my group was to take away all class abilities from 5th level on, and give them the 1/2 level progression on Animal Companion, and make a 2nd class (Warden, couldn't think of a better name) that is basically Druid minus spellcasting.  Then Natural Spell becomes a nice multiclassing feat.  Also, we gave Rangers back full level advancement for Animal Companion.