Discussion thread for A guide to interpret the psionic abjurant champion variant

[Waazraath]

Hey all, additions, corrections, opinions, and all that: please put them here. Much obliged!

The guide: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8145.0

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

One issue that I don't think the guide addresses is that Swift Abjuration was not written with the augment rules in mind.

Swift Abjuration lets you quicken spells based on their level, up to half your class level (for a maximum of lv 3) so you get to cast your low level abjurations as swift actions, saving your standard action for more powerful spells.

The obvious port would be to let it free quicken powers with the same level limits. Only that runs into the augement problem.

A 1st level spell cast by a 5th lv character and a 10th lv character is going to be pretty much the same spell. A 1st lv power manifested by a 10th lv character at full augment will often be similarly powerful to a 5th lv spell.

So a straight psionic port of swift abjuration is significantly more powerful than the original.

EDIT: is your defensive power list intended to be a list of powers with abjuration counterparts or a more general list of "defensive powers" that would be thematically appropriate to a psionic ab champion?

Right now it seems like the latter since you've got a few powers with non abjuration counterparts on there (barkskin is transmutation.) If that's intended, you might want to make it explicit somewhere.

[Halinn]

Word it in some fashion that refunds the PP after the fact, rather than a discount to the cost. That way it's not free overaugmenting.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

It's not the discount that's the problem so much.

A 2nd lv ab champion is going to be at least 7th lv, probably higher. So they have 3rd or 4th lv spells. They get to quicken 1st lv spells which are significantly less powerful than their highest level.

A psi variant has the same average lv and power lv but with augments they can make a 1st lv power cost the same and pack a similar punch to a 4th lv power.

The power of a free quicken was balanced by only letting it apply to weaker, low lv, spells. Augments get around that limitation.

[sirpercival]

But Halinn's point is that if you only refund pp instead of giving them for free, Quicken Power still costs 6pp, reducing the effective "level" of the powers.

[Jackinthegreen]

One way you might be able to work it is to have the 6 PP "cost" count towards the power's maximum PP and as you get higher levels the "cost" might decrease or something.

For instance, a 7th level character would be able to automatically quicken a 1st level power, but he could only spend 1 PP on it normally because the 6 for quicken goes towards the max, even though he doesn't actually expend the psionic focus or PP for it.  Am I making sense?

E, it's just like Halinn's point now that I look at it, just worded a little differently.

[Waazraath]

EDIT: is your defensive power list intended to be a list of powers with abjuration counterparts or a more general list of "defensive powers" that would be thematically appropriate to a psionic ab champion?

Right now it seems like the latter since you've got a few powers with non abjuration counterparts on there (barkskin is transmutation.) If that's intended, you might want to make it explicit somewhere.

The intention is to only mention powers ith abjuration counterparts; 'defensive powers' would lead imo to much more discussion what exactly is a defensive power. As it is, there probably is already plenty of room for discussion wether a power has an abjuration counterpart or not, I'd rather not make it worse. also, in this way I feel it's more 'correct', if that's the right term. Barkskin is indeed a mistake, I'll remove it now.

As for augmentation, wouldn't it be a solution to cap the maximum amount of powerpoints to invest in a power to be quickend to be 5 (the equivalent of a 3rd level spell)?

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Hallin's suggestion is a good one. I didn't realize Quicken Power cost 6 PP (thought it was 2 for some reason.)

If each level of power costs 2 extra PP, that would keep the "level" of the swift ab powers at highest lv -3 which seems like enough to be a good balance.

[Demelain]

Might be easier to adjust your effective ML for the "free" metapsionic effects.
That is, your ML for a free quickened power is 6 lower, for extended it's 2 lower, etc. This way you don't have to keep track of these "refund" points. IMO, the main attraction here is not having to expend your psionic focus.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

That sounds good for the quickened powers.

The extended ones you should get the metamagic straight up for free since that class feature has no limit on what level of spell you can extend (also because 2 PP is a much smaller discount than 6PP.)

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Maybe one of the old 3.0e psi guys has more details.


Epic Powers use the same seeds as Epic Spells
but they get put into slightly different categories.
I don't have my once-upon-a-time notes on this.
But those are direct 'ports.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm

... so the Abj seeds get moved around quite a bit.
Dragon #349 Psiotheurgist feats are more detailed
than the SRD, but still don't have an Abj = X thing.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

The level 4 goodies are quite nice.
The 1st level powers they are equivalent
to, all "augment" more slowly than these.

r.a.w. Ardent can utilize the 5th level ability.

I don't think Expend Focus is necessary
on some of these abilities.  There are psi
powers that have built in augments to do
swift action festing, but without the expend.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prescienceOffensive.htm

[nijineko]

the Master Psionics List would be handy in nailing down equivalent powers for spells.

or you could use an erudite with spellpower acf to bring in all the spells you need as powers.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Oh right, and it couldn't be a Discipline Erudite.

So a tight DM might say:
a) ... EStP has to learn/repertoire the power first
b) ... PsiAbj guy then does Psicraft checks to learn/understand
c) ... then the PsiAbj has the power as normal

or d) ... downstream a PsiAbj is trained by an earlier
PsiAbj, which puts this squarely into downtime and
backstory, except for proving a previous PsiAbj existed.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Found this little nugget:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemsandDetectMagic

Magic Items and Detect Magic

When detect magic identifies a magic item’s school of magic, this information refers to the school of the spell placed within the potion, scroll, or wand, or the prerequisite given for the item. The description of each item provides its aura strength and the school it belongs to.

If more than one spell is given as a prerequisite, use the highest-level spell. If no spells are included in the prerequisites, use the following default guidelines.
Item Nature    School
Armor and protection items    Abjuration
Weapons or offensive items    Evocation
Bonus to ability score, on skill check, etc.    Transmutation


IF "no spells in prereqs" THEN Psi Abjurant Champ material

[Nunkuruji]

Oh right, and it couldn't be a Discipline Erudite.

So a tight DM might say:
a) ... EStP has to learn/repertoire the power first
b) ... PsiAbj guy then does Psicraft checks to learn/understand
c) ... then the PsiAbj has the power as normal

or d) ... downstream a PsiAbj is trained by an earlier
PsiAbj, which puts this squarely into downtime and
backstory, except for proving a previous PsiAbj existed.

Sounds like Jade Phoenix Mage fluff