Help with Cleric/Crusader/Prestige Paladin Build.

[Vrikolaka]

Hello Again, bros!

I'm coming again, to get help with another build.
I'll play an another game [another DM, another players and so on...], and my group currently are:

• An Human Beguiller, mainly focused in Enchantment School;
• And a Wilder/Incarnate [that I doesn't know anything, because I'm completely noob on Magic of Incarnum].

I'll adopt an Paladin NPC, to minimize the impact of the currently game [because, is an little troubling to put an new character, because of the place of the campaign...].
She is an Paladin of Heironeus, and She's currently an 3rd level character. And the DM allowed me to alter his sheet, if just doesn't change the flavour.  [so, no deity change, no background change, and so on...], and doesn't kill the levels of paladin.

So, I'll make her an Paladin 1/Crusader 1/Paladin +1. He outright ban RKV, because of Abuse of a Player previously, in another campaign, so, Ignore RKV, unfortunately.

I'm thinking to make an Aggro/Tank Build. But, I'm currently new in Tome of Battle, and I don't know how to make it effective. My plan is to make an very strong tank. I don't care about Spells in that current moment, but I'm currently open about spells, of course.

I've just already searched the Paladin Handbook, and the Crusader Handbook, to pick ideas, but I just doesn't capable to make an effective paladin/crusader that is focused in tanking.

The Character in my Mind, is an Sword and Board character, using the shield to protect the Allies, and attracting the attention of the enemies, for the protection of the frail members of group.
In the moment, the build I'm planning is on this:

Paladin 2/Crusader1/Paladin +2/Crusader 16
Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
83 points, 1 for 1, to generate attributes.

1st: Shield Specialization
Human: Stone Power
Flaw 1 (murky-eyed): Law Devotion
Flaw 2 (shaky): Knight Training (Eberron; allowing me to pick 1 level in Crusader, and come back to Paladin)
3rd: Shield Ward
6th: Divine Shield
9th: ????
12th: ????
15th: ????
18th: ????

Initial Money: Level 1 + 100 GP.   

No Idea after that. Oh, and yes, he doesn't allow anything about Forgotten Realms.
Some suggestion about Feats [you can alter the feats that I've already picked, because the game doesn't already is on.] and Stances/Maneuvers [White Raven Tactics and Thicket of Blades, of course].

Can you help me?

Oh! And sorry about my bad english, not my first language!

[Rebel7284]

I advice against Knight Training and suggest you go Paladin 4/Crusader 16.  You are spending a precious feat just to take 1 level of Crusader early, but when you do this, you can only pick up first level maneuvers. 
If you wait until level 5,  you would start with initiator level 3 and be able to pick up second level maneuvers (because of the way initiatior level counts half of your non-initiator classes.)  So basically you're spending a feat to end up with weaker maneuvers in the long run...

[Vrikolaka]

But then, I'll not pick maneuvers/stances, and I need it now! 
Unless I pick Crusader 1/paladin 2, but the DM will be mad with me...

[Rebel7284]

But then, I'll not pick maneuvers/stances, and I need it now! 
Unless I pick Crusader 1/paladin 2, but the DM will be mad with me...

Yes, Crusader 1/Paladin 2 is the same in all ways but without needing the extra feat. Why would this make your DM angry?

[X-Codes]

Maneuvers/Stances at level 3 are actually not that important.  Mundane beatstick types are perfectly serviceable until the level 7-9 range.

Complete Champion... or is it PHB 2? also has an ACF for your Paladin that drops the spellcasting for a bonus feat from a list.  It's not great most of the time, but since you don't need anything like the ability to cast CLW or Magic Weapon to qualify for any PrC's, it's REALLY easy to grab for this character and completely removes the need for Wisdom for any of your character's class abilities.

[Rebel7284]

Maneuvers/Stances at level 3 are actually not that important.  Mundane beatstick types are perfectly serviceable until the level 7-9 range.

Complete Champion... or is it PHB 2? also has an ACF for your Paladin that drops the spellcasting for a bonus feat from a list.  It's not great most of the time, but since you don't need anything like the ability to cast CLW or Magic Weapon to qualify for any PrC's, it's REALLY easy to grab for this character and completely removes the need for Wisdom for any of your character's class abilities.

I do like the opportunity to cast a Rhino's Rush from time to time even with access to first level spells.  Minor Restoration is not bad either in some circumstances.  But yes, giving up spellcasting is a valid option even if it's to help stats.

Really crusaders are best with the Standstill Feat and a reach weapon.  You can also take a few feats for charging to increase your damage.

[Vrikolaka]

But then, I'll not pick maneuvers/stances, and I need it now! 
Unless I pick Crusader 1/paladin 2, but the DM will be mad with me...

Yes, Crusader 1/Paladin 2 is the same in all ways but without needing the extra feat. Why would this make your DM angry?

I've just talked to him, to make her crusader1/paladin 2, but he talked that the Character beginned with paladin, and would be an problem for the continuity of the history line. Was because of that, that I talked to him, to make her Paladin 2/Crusader 1, not Crusader 1/paladin 2.

Maneuvers/Stances at level 3 are actually not that important.  Mundane beatstick types are perfectly serviceable until the level 7-9 range.

Complete Champion... or is it PHB 2? also has an ACF for your Paladin that drops the spellcasting for a bonus feat from a list.  It's not great most of the time, but since you don't need anything like the ability to cast CLW or Magic Weapon to qualify for any PrC's, it's REALLY easy to grab for this character and completely removes the need for Wisdom for any of your character's class abilities.

I Know that, but Paladin doesn't have any ability to tanking, just to dealing damage. In fact, was because of that, that I wanted to be an Crusader, who is an better tank for the group.

The ACF is very Nice, and I'll consider, and bump up Divine Shield to 5th level.

Maneuvers/Stances at level 3 are actually not that important.  Mundane beatstick types are perfectly serviceable until the level 7-9 range.

Complete Champion... or is it PHB 2? also has an ACF for your Paladin that drops the spellcasting for a bonus feat from a list.  It's not great most of the time, but since you don't need anything like the ability to cast CLW or Magic Weapon to qualify for any PrC's, it's REALLY easy to grab for this character and completely removes the need for Wisdom for any of your character's class abilities.

I do like the opportunity to cast a Rhino's Rush from time to time even with access to first level spells.  Minor Restoration is not bad either in some circumstances.  But yes, giving up spellcasting is a valid option even if it's to help stats.

Really crusaders are best with the Standstill Feat and a reach weapon.  You can also take a few feats for charging to increase your damage.

I wanna make and Shield User, too. Not to attack [but, perhaps, would be very intresting], but to defense of my allies [and me, of course]. And Charging to battle, leaving the two allies unprotected, would be very, very un-thematically

[Bard]

Is it necessary for it to have levels as Paladin?
I feel like the Crusader can thematically fit that role alone, without needing the specific class. I feel that "roleplaying a paladin" is more about behavior than the actual class, and any LG full armor/martial class should be able to fill the role (Cleric and Crusader foremost). It might be worth a shot of trying to convince the DM of that, hopefully he's not one of those that treat fluff as holy raw.

If it's an option I'd consider a straight Crusader build, or at least a Crusader/Cleric/Prc Paladin dip.
Really bad news about the RKV tho, that would have helped a lot, especially since if you don't try to break it it's quite a fun and balanced class (A "tank"/BFC Crusader/Cleric/Prc Paladin/RkV build I played once is still one of my favorite melee build ever, I've had tons of fun with it and worked quite well in a tier 1-3 party).

If it's not an option... just minimize the damage, take only the one level in paladin and consider it a bad version of a LA that you can't buy off

[Vrikolaka]

Is it necessary for it to have levels as Paladin?
I feel like the Crusader can thematically fit that role alone, without needing the specific class. I feel that "roleplaying a paladin" is more about behavior than the actual class, and any LG full armor/martial class should be able to fill the role (Cleric and Crusader foremost). It might be worth a shot of trying to convince the DM of that, hopefully he's not one of those that treat fluff as holy raw.

If it's an option I'd consider a straight Crusader build, or at least a Crusader/Cleric/Prc Paladin dip.
Really bad news about the RKV tho, that would have helped a lot, especially since if you don't try to break it it's quite a fun and balanced class (A "tank"/BFC Crusader/Cleric/Prc Paladin/RkV build I played once is still one of my favorite melee build ever, I've had tons of fun with it and worked quite well in a tier 1-3 party).

If it's not an option... just minimize the damage, take only the one level in paladin and consider it a bad version of a LA that you can't buy off

The DM approved the Cleric/Crusader/Prestige Paladin!! 
Crusader 20 he doesn't allowed, though.

So, how do you would make that?
I'm thinking about Cleric 1/Crusader 4/Prestige Paladin 2/Crusader +13.

The Build, I would make something about...
For 16, Dex 13 [or 15, with Breastplate, and a Lockdown Build], Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16 [or 18, if I put Dex 15]
1st: Shield Specialization
Human: Law Devotion
Flaw 1: Shield Ward
Flaw 2: Stone Power
3rd: Divine Shield
6th: ????
9th: ????
12th: ????
15th: ????
18th: Extra Turning

The Character is an Sword-and-Board Crusader, focused in Defend his Allies. If you can find, some Spear that can used with just one hand, will be greatly appreciated, too, to give reach for her [but I'll not let go the Shield, because of Concept, and the maneuvers with the Shield, who are fantastic for the character.]

[Bard]

Prestige Paladin is nice since it puts all the paladin spell in the cleric list. And well... you're a cleric. With a bigger spell list. With some spells at a lower level. This opens all kinds of cans of nice worms. You could even try some Persistent Spell abuse!
Among other things it might be worth getting some more levels that give you casting, maybe some Full BAB, almost full casting PrCs with some levels of Crusader in the mix.
Don't get me wrong, you won't be a full caster, and I think you shouldn't aim to be one if you want a "brawling tank" (opposed to a "casting tank") but some buffs, heals and spell at the right time can both help and make you rise in the priority list of the stuff to kill.
This will slow a bit the growth as a crusader tho, since you don't have access to RKV, but it might be worthwhile.

At this moment I'm sleepy and afk so I can't add anything specific, but I'm sure someone else can, and at worst I'll see what I can find tomorrow. Out of top of my head I remember that Eberron's Bone Knight is a nice Prc but it might clash with the "fluff" of the char or of the setting. I remember also something about Ravenloft's Knight of the Raven.

Anyway I'd take the 3rd level of PRC paladin, you get two TS increases, full bab, casting level and some class features. On that note you might want to check Paladin's Alternative Class Features to see if you can grab something good out of it.

[Vrikolaka]

Nice!
Picked 3rd level of PrC Paladin, but I needed to pick some PrC to advance some levels of cleric. Picking Too Battle Blessing, because is too Hot for the Character [casting with swift action, and initiating a maneuver...  ].
Some Prestige Class that advance full casting, that can be an good thing to me? I was thinking Fist of Raziel, or Church Inquisitor.

I'm going to:
Crusader 1/Cleric 1/Crusader +3/PrC Paladin 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Crusader +8.
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16
Caster Level: 8 [4th level spells], Domains: Law, War and Inquisition
Initiator Level: 16 [8th level maneuvers].
BAB: 18

Feats:
1st: Shield Specialization
Human: Stone Power
Flaw 1: Shield Ward
Flaw 2: Divine Shield
Replace Law Granted Power: Law Devotion
3rd: ?????
6th: Battle Blessing
9th: ?????
12th: ?????
15th: ?????
18th: ?????

Some advice in there? What feats can I pick? Bump Dex to pick Lockdown feats?
Some Weapon that has Reach, and can be used with a Shield, to make the Lockdown?

[Bard]

First of all, the BESTEST EVER prc imho you could get to advance spellcasting is the divine adaptation of the Abjurant Champion (from Complete Mage, there's talk about the divine version in the "Adaptation" chapter).

Cleric 1, Crusader 4, Prc Paladin 3, Crusader +1, Abjurant Champion 5, Cleric (or some +1 spellcasting prc), Crusader +5
You should end up with ALL paladin spells and Cleric spells up to 5th, all with 19 caster level, plus 8th level Maneuvers (albeit only at level 20)

The alternative is
Paladin 1, Fighter 1 (or Psywar, or Martial Rogue or something that spews feats), Crusader 18


That said I'm looking if I can find some old Crusader builds
For now I've found this, maybe you might find something helpful in that mess

PS: If you want to go sword and board this might help (credits go to Jaronk for that), and ofc Sinfire Titan's handbook if you didn't look at it already