Factotum/Chameleon questions: What makes it so good?

[strider24seven]

Guess what happens after level six: skills cease to be relevant. Besides, my argument regarding the definition of encounters is a shot at optimization of this class in general, because every group will handle it differently. It's neither obvious nor trivial how your group decides to handle a series of events regarding encounters that starts with sneaking down the corridor, goes on with searching for traps, disabling the trap found and the fight with the guards, who attack you after being alerted by your failure to disable the alarm spell. Also, levels 1-3 are irrelevant in any serious discussion anyway, so even you admit that the factotum is at best relevant for 3 levels. Sounds like a waste of space to me.

Actually, if you're playing modules, it's painfully obvious when you enter/leave an encounter (with the notable exception of the World's Largest Dungeon), even a non-combat one - everything is spelled out for you in ink (or pixels).  And even if you are not, well... the DMG encourages a DM to plan out encounters ahead of time, which presumably includes when an encounter starts/ends.  At least, I consider that a reasonable assumption.  I could very well be wrong - I consider common sense a reasonable assumption, which apparently you do not.

How are skills irrelevant past level 6?  Do you not play with the rules for Spot and Listen checks enforced?  Do you not Search rooms?  Does no one Use Magic Device?  Surely someone initiates a conversation with something other than Charm Person?  Of course, no spellcaster has ever been forced to cast defensively or taken damage whilst casting a spell.  And of course, no Incantatrix has ever used Metamagic Effect.  Ever.  I can understand that signficant investment in skills yields minimal returns at higher levels, but that no skills are used at all beyond a relatively low level? 

And how exactly are levels 1-3 irrelevant in a serious discussion?  Does no one play at low levels anymore?  Is E6 not a thing anymore?   Did I miss an errata somehwere that gives all characters and monsters 10,000 XP at character creation by default?  ... On the other hand, by saying that, I think you may have indicated that this is not a serious conversation, in which case:

This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.

As an addendum, I also I feel the inane need to correct you on this bit:

so even you admit that the factotum is at best relevant for 3 levels

I found that at low levels (<6), factota are exceedingly effective.

I would not dare to insult your reading comprehension, so I will insult your comprehension of mathematics instead. 
6=/=3.

[Demelain]

By 3 levels he referred to 4, 5, and 6. Because 1-3 Don't count, apparently.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I love Factotum 3. Meh. To the OP: Chameleon is just even more flexibility. Morphling isn't the best DotA hero. But its hard to go wrong with him in nearly any team lineup. Flexibility is very, very good. Up to a point... (That point is t2 and t1).

Makes me wonder if Kevin_Video's DM has ever done that.  "I use an inspiration point to boost this climb check." "Sorry, you're not in an encounter, thus you don't have any inspiration points to use."   

You're making me love that guy even more.

It boggles the mind how the same board that thinks that Evocation is a crappy school for wizards because it just does damage gets so fucking hung up over a genuinely bad ability like Sneak Attack.

Hehe.

The name of the game is flexibility and costs, the factotum fills in gaps and opportunities in most encounters to do minor damage or inconvenience opponents, but makes heavy use of expendable items in challenging encounters to greatly exceed the typical output of it's tier.

Bingo for T3

[FlaminCows]

One needn't guess where encounters begin and end because WotC has helpfully provided the answer.

Can a factotum (Du 14) use his “cunning insight” to boost his save outside of combat (for example, against a poison trap)?
Yes, you can use such abilities outside of combat. An “encounter” is more than a combat, but it also includes any other significant event in the game such as stopping to bash down a door, navigating a rickety bridge, or dealing with a trap. If the characters have a minute or two to catch their breath and rest, assume that the last encounter has ended and all per encounter abilities refresh.

Simple enough.

Ark, the confusion you're having is because if you're a Chameleon you're going to be focusing on that, rather than on the Factotum's abilities. Brains over Brawn is a nice boost for the Chameleon. Cunning Surge is also good, but I've yet to see anyone go a full eight levels into Factotum when making a Chameleon build unless they're playing gestalt.

[X-Codes]

Ark, the confusion you're having is because if you're a Chameleon you're going to be focusing on that, rather than on the Factotum's abilities. Brains over Brawn is a nice boost for the Chameleon. Cunning Surge is also good, but I've yet to see anyone go a full eight levels into Factotum when making a Chameleon build unless they're playing gestalt.

Cunning Surge comes online for Chameleons at level 18.  When you play a Chameleon, you start it at ECL 6 and you finish at ECL 15, because you don't want to lose caster levels and very little advances Chameleon casting (certainly not Factotum levels).

[FlaminCows]

Ark, the confusion you're having is because if you're a Chameleon you're going to be focusing on that, rather than on the Factotum's abilities. Brains over Brawn is a nice boost for the Chameleon. Cunning Surge is also good, but I've yet to see anyone go a full eight levels into Factotum when making a Chameleon build unless they're playing gestalt.

Cunning Surge comes online for Chameleons at level 18.  When you play a Chameleon, you start it at ECL 6 and you finish at ECL 15, because you don't want to lose caster levels and very little advances Chameleon casting (certainly not Factotum levels).

Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion both advance Chameleon casting, and that might be more useful post-15.

[X-Codes]

Nothing advances Chameleon casting post-15.  Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster will net you a higher CL, but no spells, and no higher spell levels.

[FlaminCows]

That's what cheesy feat tricks are for. 

[X-Codes]

That's what cheesy feat tricks are for. 

Let's go burn a Candle of Invocation while we're at it, huh?

[zugschef]

That's what cheesy feat tricks are for. 

It's not even cheesy, because there's no cheese to begin with.

[SorO_Lost]

Nothing advances Chameleon casting post-15.  Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster will net you a higher CL, but no spells, and no higher spell levels.

Well there is also the mimic'ed Class Features like Turn Undead, Smite Evil, and Sneak Attack which will also see an increase.

Through the last five levels should include Master of Masks. The Gladiator Mask grants you proficiency with all exotic weapons.

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Annulat: Planar Handbook pg 68. Thrown weapon that imposes a -2 penalty to AC against it's target. If you're going to throw something, why not make it easier to hit? It's also noteworthy that neraphim treat it as a martial weapon, making a neraphim Master Thrower/Bloodstorm Blade a tempting option.

Boomerang: Eberron Campaign setting pg 119: This weapon actually sucks. It deals less damage then most other thrown weapons. When it misses, you can make an attack roll to catch it. However, proficiency with this weapon qualifies you for the uber Boomerang Daze feat (Races of Eberron pg 108) forces anyone who takes damage from your boomerang to Save or be Dazed (one of the most powerful effects in the game) for 1 round, and Boomerang Ricochet (also RoE pg 108) which lets you hit a second adjacent target with your boomerang (potentially Dazing both) after you hit the first.

Braid Blade: Dungeon 120: 1d3, 18-20, x2. On a full attack, allows you to make an extra attack at -5, or -2 if you have 5 ranks of Tumble.

Collapsing Crescent Fan: Sandstorm, p. 96: +4 to attack any flat-footed foe. Great when combined with Iaijutsu Focus.

Composite Greatbow: Complete Warrior: Does 1d10 damage and has a 130 ft range increment. So this a good long ranged weapon for pure damage dealing.

Drow Scorpion Chain: Secrets of Xen'drik pg 137: Exactly the same as a normal Spiked Chain, except that if you happen to be a drow, you can take the Drow Skirmisher feat (which grants several proficiencies and minor bonuses) instead of Exotic Weapon Proficiency to get proficiency with it. Not useful for Haberdash, but worth including on this list for the sake of completeness.

Elven Courtblade: Races of the Wild: 1d10, 18-20 *2. Slightly less damage then the Jovar. But this two handed weapon can be used for both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse.

Flindbar: Monster Manual III: +2 to Disarm, and when you threaten a crit (19-20 or 17-20 with any Keen effect) you get a free Disarm attempt before you roll to confirm the crit.

Foot Spike: Races of the Wild: Yet another place to hide a weapon, just in case your DM decides to have your party taken prisoner.

Glot: Frostburn: Can be used to make ranged trip attacks, and deals better damage then bolas or barbed bolas.

Goad: Frostburn: Reach weapon that deals non-lethal damage, in case you ever want to capture someone without killing them. Also gives you +2 to Handle Animal checks against Huge or bigger animals.

Greathammer: Monster Manual 4 or Races of Stone: 1d12, 19-20/x4 or just 20/x4, depending on which version you use. Also gives you +2 to Sunder a weapon or shield, but sundering your future treasure is generally a bad idea.

Harpoon: Frostburn: A harpooned creature moves at half speed, cannot charge or run, and if you attach a rope to it you can limit their movement away from you. It can be removed with a full round action, which deals damage again. Occasionally helpful for battlefield control. Or you can enchant it with Returning, and have a double damage ranged attack.

Heavy weapons: Basically a special way of constructing a metal weapon. Increases the damage die of the weapon based on a set chart. Requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield correctly. But this is no problem for Haberdash. So unless your DM is crazy enough to let you use Kaorti, then most of your weapons should be Heavy. Magic of Faerun, pg. 179.

Ice Axe: Frostburn: +4 to Climb checks.

Jovar: Planar Handbook: 2d6, 18-20, *2. With high damage and a high threat range, this is your is a respectable pure damage dealing weapon. Buy a Scabbard of Keen Edges.

Kaorti weapons: Fiend Folio web enhancement: *ANY* weapon can be made out of kaorti, which gives it a crit multiplier of x4. You need an EWP for a kaorti version of a weapon (even if it is already exotic), but... hey, no problem for Haberdash! Combine with a Keen Elven Courtblade or something similar for a ridiculous crit. Of course, this is a ridiculously exotic weapon, as you need to convince an Evil Outsider to make it for you (or accept the +4 LA to be a Kaorti yourself). My suggestion is that you invest in Knowledge (Planes), and ask your DM for a side quest to get one.

Kusari-Gama: A one handed reach weapon, which is useful for certain builds. The Spinning Sword (see below) is superior, but comes from a more obscure source. DMG.

Lance: Not exotic, but everyone who is proficient should keep one on their mount. You never know when double damage from a charge might come in handy. And like the Kusari-Gama, it's a one handed reach weapon (when you're mounted and use a shield). PHB.

Lasso: Book of Exalted Deeds, p. 34: Using a lasso is a ranged touch attack that imposes a -2 to attack rolls and -4 on Dex (no Save).

Longstaff: Complete Adventurer: If you fight defensively or use Combat Expertise while using this weapon, you can’t be flanked. Screw you Rogues!

Mancatcher: Complete Warrior: Gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Also, as long as your enemy can’t reach you, they can’t attack you or do anything other then attempt to move or escape from the grapple.

Net (PHB): Using a net is a ranged touch attack (maximum range of 10 feet) that imposes a -2 to attack rolls and -4 to Dex, 1/2 movement, and you can’t charge or run (no Save).

Orc Shotput: Sword & Fist, p. 71: One of the best thrown weapons in the game: 2d6 damage, 19-20 crit, x3 multiplier. Add some Master Thrower for extra fun.

Pincer Staff: Underdark: Basically a mancatcher that deals more damage.

Razor Net: Dragon Compendium, p. 115: All the hassle of a regular net, and it does 1d6 damage.

Ritiik: Frostburn: If you successfully hit an enemy, the enemy must make a Reflex Save. If it fails, you get a free Trip Attempt. Basically a weaker version of Knock-Down for free.

Scorpion Claws: +4 to Grapple checks. The bonus is unnamed, so it stacks with Improved Grapple. They're also light weapons, so no Power Attack, but yes for TWF. Sandstorm.

Sharktooth Staff: Savage Species: Gives you a free Grapple attempt when you hit your enemy. Unlike the mancatcher or pincer staff, it has no reach. But it deals the best damage. It’s also worth mentioning that they each have size restrictions.

Spiked Chain: PHB: Useful if you have a ton of reach and a potent magic weapon with an AoO build. But most of the time you can just use a glaive and a 5 ft step. If you're really in a pinch, use armor spikes.

Spinning Sword: Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136. Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand. Useful if you want to be a sword and board build, or a TWF build.

Sugliin: Frostburn: Does 2d8 damage, but it’s a full round action to make 1 attack. But hey, until you get to +6 BAB, this is your weapon of choice for pure damage dealing when you’re already standing next to your enemy.

Whip Dagger: Drow of the Underdark: 15 feet of reach, which might be helpful on occasion. You can also use it with the Whip Climber Skill Trick to do Indiana Jones-ish swinging.

Yuan-Ti Serpent Bow: Secrets of Xen'drik pg 137: A bow with curved blades at the edges. You can use it as a ranged weapon or as a melee weapon interchangeably, and it is a treated as a double weapon for magical enhancements (you enchant the bow part and the blade part separately). Not that useful for Haberdash specifically, but a nifty choice for bow builds that fight in dungeons and other closed in spaces a lot.

You can also use the Masks to display any desired alignment for some interesting NPC reactions. Like don the Angelic Mask and use Chameleon to pretend you're a Paladin. Clearly that orphanage you burned to the ground was full of heretics and devils or you would a fallen, and not an LG, Paladin.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

One needn't guess where encounters begin and end because WotC has helpfully provided the answer.

Can a factotum (Du 14) use his “cunning insight” to boost his save outside of combat (for example, against a poison trap)?
Yes, you can use such abilities outside of combat. An “encounter” is more than a combat, but it also includes any other significant event in the game such as stopping to bash down a door, navigating a rickety bridge, or dealing with a trap. If the characters have a minute or two to catch their breath and rest, assume that the last encounter has ended and all per encounter abilities refresh.

Simple enough.

hmm ... interesting ... this f.a.q. definition of an
"encounter" jives in the range of this one from BG:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11923.5

[SorO_Lost]

Oh yeah. That's part of JaronK's personal crusade to prove the Factotum was the best^* Class ever. It's better than Casters because it doesn't break the game with spellcasting and it's better than mundanes because it has spellcasting. It's weak enough a team of rag-tag Monks won't feel underpowered but can compete with a Wizard thanks to it's ability to cast Planar Binding & Animate Dead.

[Shadowhunter]

I think the thing about skills becoming obsolete after a certain level has to do with the fact that most skill DC's are at a level where your modifiers (if you're competent at it) means you can succeed at most of the things fairly soon in  your career.

I'm going to repost a quote from some dude over at the old WotC boards, through McPoyo who posted it at BG. Coincidentally, this repost is exactly three years ago in two days.
Is it noticeable that I'm during my last year at University and have proper-source-crediting on my brain btw? 

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I mean, just look at skill totals at 9th level and above. You're doing some crazy Censored: on a regular basis, and most of the time you're not even thinking twice about it.This deserves an illustration, I think.
9th level Bard. He has 12 ranks of Perform, started with 16 Cha and increased it twice to 18 (+4). He also has a masterwork instrument (+2) and a Circlet of Persuasion (+3). His Perform modifier is now 12+4+2+3=+21. This means that, by taking ten, he nails a 31 every time. According to the PHB, this means that by playing on street corners, he will eventually attract the attention of extraplanar beings. Gimble will be sitting around drinking and playing his lute when a genie bamfs in and asks the gnome to perform at his kid's Bar Mitzvah.
9th level Rogue. He has 12 ranks of Balance, started with 16 Dex and boosted it twice to 18 (+4). He gets a +2 synergy bonus from Tumble ranks, for a total modifier of 12+4+2=+18. Taking 10, he will, every time, be able to move at full speed across a one inch wide marble-covered beam. (18+10-5=23 for the check, 20+2(scree) =22 for the DC.)
9th level Barbarian. 12 ranks of Climb, now has 18 (+4) Strength, for a final modifier of 12+4=+16. Taking 10, he gets a 26. He can now climb most mountains while raining, moving 40 feet every 6 seconds. (Check is 26-5=21 for accelerated climbing, DC is 15+5=20 for climbing a rough natural rock surface that's slippery.)
9th level Swashbuckler. 12 ranks of Jump, 12 (+1) Strength, +2 synergy from Tumble. His modifier is 12+1+2=+15. Taking 10 gets him a 25. The female world record for the long jump is (7.52 meters)*(3.28 feet/meter) = 24.7 feet. This character beats that every time he wants to. The men's record is 8.95*3.28= 29.3 feet, which his character could swing pretty easily if he so desired. When the character rolls instead of taking 10, he can hit as much as 35 feet, blowing past the world record by two yards.
9th level Beguiler. 12 ranks in Disguise, 14 (+2) Charisma, with a disguise kit (+2). Total modifier is +16, taking 10 gets him a 26. He can disguise himself as a woman's human husband (+10 for intimate familiarity) as long as she has a Spot modifier of 6 or less.
Because it's fun to pick on Fighters, let's say this woman is Fighter. We'll generously give her a Wisdom of 14 (+2), which means she needs 4.5 ranks to beat the spread and win the check with a 26.5 (again assuming taking 10). Since spot is cross-class, the soonest she could get that many is at 6th level.
May the gods help you if this guy uses Disguise Self to boost his check by another 10. Or if he's a Bard, kicking his Charisma up another couple notches.
9th level Monk. 12 ranks in sense motive, 16 (+3) Wisdom. Final modifier is 12+3=+15. Taking 10, he can instantly tell whether a person is under the effects of Charm Person or not, every time. (DC 25) And that isn't "I've a sneaking suspicion that something is wrong here" so much as it's "Hi, my name is Benedict Thelonious. Also, you're charmed."
9th level Bard again. 12 "ranks" in Speak Language nets him 12 languages, because Bards are awesome like that. There are only 20 of the things listed in the PHB, one of them is Druidic, and he starts with a few because of race and intelligence. He learns this from hanging out in bars, and in addition to everything else he can do. I don't think there are many people in the world that can boast that kind of repertoire, and finding one in his mid-20s that's also a competent in battle, magic (which we can approximate to some degree with science or technology), and whatever this guy is burning his other 5+Int skill points on is fairly definitely impossible.
9th level Ranger goes tracking. 12 ranks in Survival, 14 (+2) Wisdom, +4 from Search and Know: Nature synergy, and +2 from some manner of tracking kit. Modifier is 12+2+4+2= +20, which means he takes 10 to get a 30. To match this, the DC is going to look like this: 4+5+1+20. That comes from tracking a single Toad (+4 DC for being Diminutive) that is covering his tracks (+5) after an hour of rainfall (+1) over bare rock (20).
By 9th level, you're pretty much past the point of being able to use "It's not realistic!" as any sort of relevant complaint in a D&D environment. Oh, and on a similar note, I reference the Proud Nails (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a) article on the Wizards D&D page which notes that olympic archers are 7th level Rangers, the weightlifters hit 23-24 strength tops, and that a 6th level Monk with Dash can set a marathon record. (Alternatively, he could be 9th level or take the Run feat and absolutely blow it away.) Anything past that is, pretty much by definition, superhuman.

+++EDIT+++

Oops, semi-necro'ed.

[Captnq]

True, but there are some Vs skills that you can never have too high.

Listen, Spot, Hide, Move silently, Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy all spring to mind.

Trust me, I just beat one of my players Hide rolls. She got a 57. The bad guy still spotted her.

[SorO_Lost]

There are two problems with Spot/Listen is Hide/Move hits 40+ before you have 12 ranks in the Skill. CR 20 monsters cap out below +30 or so, you need customs to deal with them. So meh. And the other problem is higher level monster's and spellcasters don't care what your Hide check is unless you have Darkstalker & a Ring of Darkhidden, even then there are a few that don't care anyway.

Also you must be using houserules in order to even suggest Diplomacy. I mean a DC 50 check flips the BBEG into being your bodyguard. Imagine Luke Skywalker walking handcuffed into the Emperor's throne room and Luke is all like "you should surrender" then instead of laughing saying your Jedi mind tricks won't work on him the Emperor uses the Death Star to blow up his Star Cruisers in agreeance.

Wait, that's totally a true story. How else did the flipping furries win?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

9th level Beguiler. 12 ranks in Disguise, 14 (+2) Charisma, with a disguise kit (+2). Total modifier is +16, taking 10 gets him a 26. He can disguise himself as a woman's human husband (+10 for intimate familiarity) as long as she has a Spot modifier of 6 or less.

  ... peek-a-boo