Going back to 3.P - the CR system

[The_Mormegil]

I'm one of the people who found 4E to be better than 3.P for my taste and the need of my group. I have an open mind for improvised rituals and my campaign tends to be plot oriented enough that most of the unfortunate 4E baggage can be ignored, and I loved the freshness of the combat system (at least for martial types) and the generic flavor that could easily be retooled. However, that group is no more and what's left of it is now bored to death from the combat system of 4E. So it seems I have to run a 3.P campaign now.

Back in the day we had plenty of optimization problems. However I read enough and suffered enough to know what to look for. I chopped down the class system to tiny pieces and left something that shouldn't give too much trouble, and most importantly my players are mature. So I'm not too scared of intra-party balance.

What I'm scared of, is the CR system. I come from years and years of "throw something together in under a minute, add some interesting terrain et voilà the encounter is ready". I come from years of expecting to know what makes for a tough fight and what is a cakewalk that plays into the party's strength. I have no expectations to be able to be quite as accurate in my predictions, because the system is completely different; however I want all the advice you can give on how to prepare for this campaign. The group is going to be Tier 3 and moderately-to-well optimized. We are going to be running from level 5 to I think level 15-ish. Pathfinder and 3.5 material is all open, but with unlimited bans on my part (I reserve the right to sniff out cheese and kill it with no save allowed). How do I challenge these guys, and how do I make sure the fights I prepare are at the opportune difficulty level?

(Also, please don't say "run through the fight a couple times". I don't have that much time to prepare. I want to be able to throw an encounter together during the session if need be, because I usually don't know what's going to happen in game. I will be able to prepare "random" fights beforehand and adapt them on the fly, but I still want to spend as little time as possible on that stuff)

EDIT: also yeah I don't know where I should post this. I figure this is probably the place but I've been wrong in the past.

[Nytemare3701]

The CR of a creature is the same as the level of the character. If a CR 5 Creature and a CR 5 character were to face off, it would theoretically be a 50/50 chance of success. This means that a fight with the CR of the party's average level should be 1/4 of the party's daily resources. In reality, it gets more complicated based on optimization levels, party dynamics, creature abilites, etc, but it makes a decent *cough*yeahright*cough* guideline.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Yeah, the 3e versus Monsters system is no where near as Precise as 4e's.

You knew how the DM's Monster Level stacked up vs. the Player's PCs.
Maybe they were good enough against a Level+1 encounter, or even better.

You need a larger margin of error in 3e, and the game maths don't assume
a TMK (total monster kill) , rather the assumption is as Nytemare just said.
Quite different.

You could give the pc's a level or 2 cushion, til they and you get the hang of it.

[The_Mormegil]

I read the DMG. I also remember the Hill Giant and the Ogre Magi being CR 8. Both of them. IIRC one has greater invisibility and fireball, while the other can... throw rocks i guess. With a lousy will save.

I also remember a fairly optimized melee character being able to oneshot people at medium-to-high levels. I also remember needing to throw mostly NPCs with many levels over the party in order to provide a challenge. And I remember how the PCs would die instantly if I was a bit too evil, and breeze through supposedly challenging fights if I was a little too generous with them.

I'd like to have some more accurate guidance if there is any. Or at least know how you people do this. I'm not new to the edition and to the problems it has - I'm here because you are more expert than me and there may have been work done in this direction by other people in the past that I could use.

[PsyBomb]

It really depends on the party. Beguilers aren't going to be worth their weight against most undead, for example , but can solo enemy parties (plural) if they have weak Will. High-opt Melee will be awesome when their chosen gimmick is usable, but a charger isn't doing much in twisting tunnels.

Basically, start out around their CR without leaning on ability-countering foes, and adjust as you get the feel for it. The party I'm running is fairly low-opt, but I find that between the rogue and crit-fisher barb is a BAD place to be.