polymorph templated character - what is lost

[The_Laughing_Man]

Suppose that a human charater (1st level Wizard) has the below mentioned templates and he is then polymorphed to e.g. a halfling. What will be lost from his templates in his new form?

The character has these abilities from the templates:

Phrenic:
- type: psionic subtype
- psi-like abilities (Sp)
- Special Quality: Naturally psionic (gains 1 power point)
- Special Quality: Power resistance (Ex) (HD + 10)
- Abilities: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4
- Feats: meets prereqs for psionic feats
- Challenge Rating: +1,+2,+3 depending on HD
- Level Adjustement: +2

Half-Dragon:
- type: Dragon
- Hit Dice: increase one HD of the base creature (human)
- Armor Class: Natural Armor +4
- Attack: natural attacks: 1 bite and 2 claws
- Special attack: breath weapon
- Special Quality: Darkvision 60 ft
- Special Quality: low-light vision
- Special Quality: immunity to sleep, paralysis and one element e.g. fire
- Abilities: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2
- Skills: extra skill points and class skills per racial HD
- Challenge Rating: +2
- Alignment: same as the dragon variety
- Level Adjustement: +3

Half-Fiend:
- type: native outsider
- speed: bat wings, fly speed
- Armor Class: Natural Armor +1
- Attacks: natural attacks: 1 bite, 2 claws
- Special Attack: Smite Good (Su)
- Spell-like abilities
- Special Quality: Darkvision 60 ft
- Special Quality: immunity to poison
- Special Quality: Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
- Special Quality: Damage reduction: x/magic (depends on HD)
- Special Quality: Natural weapons are treated as magic against DR
- Special Quality: Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10
- Abilities: Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2
- Skills: extra skill points and class skills per racial HD
- Challenge Rating: +1,+2,+3 depending on HD
- Alignment: any evil
- Level Adjustement: +4

Also the character has taken 1 level of wizard and chosen the following feats for some peculiar reason:
Psionic Body [level dependant feat]
Psionic Talent [human bonus feat]
Note that he can take these psionic feats due to Phrenic template.

Assuming 32 point buy the character has the following odd-ball stats:
str: 8, dex: 8, con: 8, int: 18, wis 8, cha: 18

After templates:
str: 20, dex: 12, con: 12, int: 26, wis 10, cha: 26

His type is psionic Dragon/Outsider.
He also has 2 HD due to half-dragon.
And he has 2 bite attacks and 4 claw attacks. (half of them magic againts DR)
He can fly (with bat wings).


Now he is polymorphed to a halfling.

So what does he lose from his templates or from feats taken?


Here is what I think will happen:
Lost due to Alter Self part of the Polymorph
Lost due to Polymorph

Phrenic:
- type: psionic subtype
- psi-like abilities (Sp)
- Special Quality: Naturally psionic (gains 1 power point)
- Special Quality: Power resistance (Ex) (HD + 10)
- Abilities: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4
- Feats: meets prereqs for psionic feats
- Challenge Rating: +1,+2,+3 depending on HD
- Level Adjustement: +2

Half-Dragon:
- type: Augmented Dragon
- Hit Dice: increase one HD of the base creature (human)
- Armor Class: Natural Armor +4
- Attack: natural attacks: 1 bite and 2 claws
- Special attack: breath weapon
- Special Quality: Darkvision 60 ft
- Special Quality: low-light vision
- Special Quality: immunity to sleep, paralysis and one element e.g. fire
- Abilities: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2
- Skills: extra skill points and class skills per racial HD
- Challenge Rating: +2
- Alignment: same as the dragon variety
- Level Adjustement: +3

Half-Fiend:
- type: Augmented native outsider
- speed: bat wings, fly speed
- Armor Class: Natural Armor +1
- Attacks: natural attacks: 1 bite, 2 claws
- Special Attack: Smite Good (Su)
- Spell-like abilities
- Special Quality: Darkvision 60 ft
- Special Quality: immunity to poison
- Special Quality: Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
- Special Quality: Damage reduction: x/magic (depends on HD)
- Special Quality: Natural weapons are treated as magic against DR
- Special Quality: Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10
- Abilities: Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2
- Skills: extra skill points and class skills per racial HD
- Challenge Rating: +1,+2,+3 depending on HD
- Alignment: any evil
- Level Adjustement: +4

Also the character has taken 1 level of wizard and chosen the following feats for some peculiar reason:
Psionic Body [level dependant feat]
Psionic Talent [human bonus feat]
Note that he can take these psionic feats due to Phrenic template.

Assuming 32 point buy the character has the following odd-ball stats:
str: 8, dex: 8, con: 8, int: 18, wis 8, cha: 18

After templates:
str: 20 11, dex: 12 13, con: 12 12, int: 26, wis 10, cha: 26

His type is Humanoid Augmented [psionic Dragon/Outsider].
He also has 2 HD due to half-dragon.
And he has 2 bite attacks and 4 claw attacks. (half of them magic againts DR)
He can fly (with bat wings).
He gains some unimportant halfling traits.


I think those Special Qualities are natural qualities unless otherwise stated. So I assume that the character keeps them because Alter Self or Polymorph does not seem to take them away.

I'm uncertain whether he loses his natural attacks or his Natural Armor.

Back in the old boards is this nice chart about changing shape. But it does not address what happens to natural abilities or attacks of the original form. Is that by the way ported? I could not find it here.

Anyway thanks for reading so far. And if you can help me out, thanks again, I'd appreciate it.

[FlaminCows]

While polymorph does not explicitly say that you lose your natural qualities, it does fall under the polymorph subschool. Thus, this would apply:

Unless stated otherwise in the spell's description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows:

    The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form's ability scores).

    The target retains its own hit points.

    The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, 95 such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form's base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.

    The target retains the ability to understand the languages it understands in its normal form. If the new form is normally capable of speech, the target retains the ability to speak these languages as well. It can write in the languages it understands, but only if the new form is capable of writing in some manner (even a primitive manner, such as drawing in the dirt with a paw).

In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form.

That last sentence is particularly important. Unless the spell specifically says that natural abilities are kept, they are lost. So no natural armour, no claw attacks, no bite attacks, no spell resistance, no darkvision, no low light vision, no immunity to sleep, paralysis, poison or elements, no elemental resistances, no breath weapon, no damage reduction, and even no Human bonus feat and skills.

[The_Laughing_Man]

In all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form. The target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features (even if the new form would normally be able to use these class features).

Alter self states that Extraordinary attacks and qualities are retained from class levels. What happens to Su and Sp abilities from class levels? According to the quote above it seems that they are lost.

Alter self states that Su and Sp from normal form are retained. This overrides the text in Polymorph subschool because spell text takes precedence over Polymorph subschool. This is described earlier in the Polymorph subschool description.

So Natural abilities seems to be lost because if I understand correctly the game statistics mean the entire monster stat block, which would mean that those replace the natural attacks for example.

Also worth to note that in the Polymorphing (Part Three) article the example shows that the Elven traits (which include immunity to sleep) are lost in the polymorphed form.


I'm still a bit confused. Let's try to identify what type is each ability.

Natural Abilities
Low light vision
Fire Immunity
Immunity to Poison
Energy Resistance: It says usually Extraordinary and because it is not specified hence Natural ability it still is
Damage Reduction
Psionic Subtype: this is gained because of being Naturally Psionic and because of Psi-like abilities. Type is not specified hence it is still Natural ability.

Natural Abilities because no type is specified
Immunity to sleep
Immunity to paralysis
Naturally Psionic
Natural attack
Natural armor
Natural weapons are treated as magic against DR
Feats: meets prereqs for psionic feats
Type: With alter self type and subtype is retained. With polymorph they are changed to match the new form.
Hit Dice: increase one HD of the base creature (human): Alter slef states that one's own hit points are retained.
Human 1 extra feat at 1st level
Ability increases from templates: Note that with polymorph Int, Wis and Cha are retained and the rest are replaced with the new form.

Natural ability or not??
Racial Skill points: According to the article the racial skill points are retained without any explanation. I would say it i Natural ability as the type is not specified

Supernatural Abilities
Breath weapon

Extraordinary Abilities
Darkvision
Spell Resistance

Game mechanics
Challenge Rating, Alignment and Level Adjustment: they are game mechanics so they can be ignored.

Lost due to Alter Self part of the Polymorph
Lost due to Polymorph
Lost due to Polymorph subschool
Game mechanic is ignored

Human
- 1 extra feat at 1st level. (Na)
- 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. (Na)

Phrenic:
- type: psionic subtype (Na)
- psi-like abilities (Sp)
- Special Quality: Naturally psionic (gains 1 power point) (Na)
- Special Quality: Power resistance (HD + 10) (Ex)
- Abilities: Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4 (Na)
- Feats: meets prereqs for psionic feats (Na)
- Challenge Rating: +1,+2,+3 depending on HD
- Level Adjustement: +2

Half-Dragon:
- type: Augmented Dragon (Na)
- Hit Dice: increase one HD of the base creature (human) (Na)
- Armor Class: Natural Armor +4 (Na)
- Attack: natural attacks: 1 bite and 2 claws (Na)
- Special attack: breath weapon (Su)
- Special Quality: Darkvision 60 ft (Ex)
- Special Quality: low-light vision (Na)
- Special Quality: immunity to sleep (Na)
- Special Quality: immunity to paralysis (Na)
- Special Quality: immunity to one element e.g. fire (Na)
- Abilities: Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2 (Na)
- Skills: extra skill points and class skills per racial HD (Na)
- Challenge Rating: +2
- Alignment: same as the dragon variety
- Level Adjustement: +3

Half-Fiend:
- type: Augmented native outsider (Na)
- speed: bat wings, fly speed (Na)
- Armor Class: Natural Armor +1 (Na)
- Attacks: natural attacks: 1 bite, 2 claws (Na)
- Special Attack: Smite Good (Su)
- Spell-like abilities (Sp)
- Special Quality: Darkvision 60 ft (Ex)
- Special Quality: immunity to poison (Na)
- Special Quality: Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10. (Na)
- Special Quality: Damage reduction: x/magic (depends on HD) (Na)
- Special Quality: Natural weapons are treated as magic against DR (Na)
- Special Quality: Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (Ex)
- Abilities: Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2 (Na)
- Skills: extra skill points and class skills per racial HD (Na)
- Challenge Rating: +1,+2,+3 depending on HD
- Alignment: any evil
- Level Adjustement: +4

Also the character has taken 1 level of wizard and chosen the following feats for some peculiar reason:
Psionic Body [level dependant feat]
Psionic Talent [human bonus feat]
Note that he can take these psionic feats due to Phrenic template.

Assuming 32 point buy the character has the following odd-ball stats:
str: 8, dex: 8, con: 8, int: 18, wis 8, cha: 18

After templates and polymorph:
str: 20 11, dex: 12 13, con: 12 12, int: 26, wis 10, cha: 26

His type is Humanoid Augmented [psionic Dragon/Outsider].
He also has 2 HD due to half-dragon.
And he has 2 bite attacks and 4 claw attacks. (half of them magic againts DR)
He can fly (with bat wings).
He gains some unimportant halfling traits.

That is one mighty nerf on the Wizard character..

So it seems that what are retained:
- Su and Sp abilities from normal form.
- Ex attacks and qualities from Class levels.
- Racial skill points, although only because of the WotC article.
- HD

And what is lost is:
- Su and Sp abilities from Class levels.
- Ex attacks and qualities from normal form.
- All Natural abilities except Racial skill points and HD

So if one plans to use templates and polymorph then get templates with Sp and Su abilities and mental stat increases.
Also one needs to be careful what feats or their benefits are lost. I assume that Su and Sp abilities from feats are lost.

On the other hand one might choose not to use Players Handbook 2 which has the Polymorph Subschool rules.

[phaedrusxy]

Where Alter Self and Polymorph contradict the Polymorph subschool, you actually go with the text of Alter Self and Polymorph. This is written up somewhere on "spells that came before" in the description of the Polymorph Subschool (back when it was first introduced). This goes for Shapechange, PAO, and pretty much all of the original polymorph type spells that didn't come out after the subschool was published. I think the idea was that you could either a) use the new spells (which are crap compared to the old ones) or b) keep using the old ones (if you weren't concerned about them being overpowered ).

[FlaminCows]

The idea isn't just "choose one or the other". The idea is that "this subschool mechanic applies to those older spells, as well as any new ones we label as (polymorph)". Except where the text of the spell explicitly says otherwise, the effects of the Polymorph subschool would apply.

So, for example, Alter Self does not change you ability scores because it explicitly says it does not change ability scores, but the Polymorph subschool's effect of replacing class features would still come into effect because Alter Self does not say it doesn't.