Optimizing a stealthy Binder

[HCL]

I am trying to create a stealthy Binder that will be at least as good as a conventional Rogue/Swashbuckler/Assassin build is for combat and assassinations. It should also be able to scout and disarm traps reasonably well and be relevant vs enemies who are immune to sneak attack. Here is what I have so far:

(click to show/hide)

Romeo
Race: Human
Alignment: TN
Base Stats (32 Point Buy): Strength 8, Dexterity 18 (Increase every four levels), Constitution 14, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 10, Charisma 10
Class: Rogue 1 / Swashbuckler 1 / Binder 4 / Knight of the Sacred Seal (Malphas) 5 / ???

Levels, Abilities, and Feats:
Rogue 1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Two Weapon Fighting, Able Learner (Human Bonus Feat)
Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse (Bonus Feat)
Binder 1: Soulbinding, Improved Binding (Bind up to 2nd level vestiges)
Binder 2: Pact Augmentation 1, Suppress Sign
Binder 3: Bind up to 3rd Level Vestiges
Binder 4: Negotiator or Persuasive (Binder Bonus Feat), Weapon Focus: Shortsword
KoSS 1: Aligned Strike (Lawful?), Patron Vestige (Malphas), Bind up to 4th level vestiges
KoSS 2: Vestige's Protection
KoSS 3: Vestige's Protection Aura, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Bind up to 5th Level Vestiges
KoSS 4: Vestige's Power, Soul Binding (Two Vestiges)
KoSS 5: Apotheosis, Vestige's Surge, Bind Up to 6th Level Vestiges

When hanging out in town use Naberius to Diplomacy and Bluff people.

For adventuring use Malphas and Andromalius for sneak attack damage. Use Jester's Mirth, Invisibility, and flanking with a fighter ally to apply sneak attack. Use Bird's Eye Viewing to scout ahead. Later add in Marchosias for really high stealth, gaseous form, and assassination.

When fighting undead switch to Aceracak and Tenebrous for Hide From Undead and Rebuke Undead.

One idea is to switch from Human to Whisper Gnome or Strongheart Halfling but I would lose able learner. I could also pick up a flaw to get Master of Poisons (Drow of the Underdark). That would be redundant with Malphas' Poison Use but allow me to apply poison as a swift action. However I already have all of the Knight of the Sacred Seal abilities that I would be using on swift actions.

Once I finish Knight of the Sacred Seal I think it would be best to keep going with Binder so I could get access to Marchosias as well as increase my sneak attack dice from Andromalius and Malphas. I am open to suggestions for improvement.

[Kasz]

I love master of poisons, but for you it's sub-optimal in my opinion. You already have poison use from Malphas, then if you buy something like a Weapon Capsule Retainer (or a triple weapon capsule retainer) which would grant you the ability to put poison on your weapons as a swift action, it's a little restrictive... but it's only like 150-450gp which is pittance to pay when compared to a feat slot.

[vaz]

Malphas is only really of use in stealthy builds for the birds eye viewing, which is replicable by Spider Hand (although sans Flying, but there are equally good UMD wizard spells available via Karsus which allow such divination). The weapon capsule as stated above covers that poison use, Sudden Strike is terrible - 5d6 at 20th? It's only of use for getting Staggering Strike.

[HCL]

I love master of poisons, but for you it's sub-optimal in my opinion. You already have poison use from Malphas, then if you buy something like a Weapon Capsule Retainer (or a triple weapon capsule retainer) which would grant you the ability to put poison on your weapons as a swift action, it's a little restrictive... but it's only like 150-450gp which is pittance to pay when compared to a feat slot.

Thank you for the tip. I will just use an item or try to apply poison before combat starts.

Malphas is only really of use in stealthy builds for the birds eye viewing, which is replicable by Spider Hand (although sans Flying, but there are equally good UMD wizard spells available via Karsus which allow such divination). The weapon capsule as stated above covers that poison use, Sudden Strike is terrible - 5d6 at 20th? It's only of use for getting Staggering Strike.

Well if you add up 5d6 + 5d6 from Andromalius + 1d6 from Rogue 1 I would be at 11d6 sneak attack at level 22 though the game would probably not go that high. At level 17 I would have 4d6 + 4d6 + 1d6 = 9d6 which is equivalent to a Rogue/Swashbuckler/Assassin at level 17. I would also have access to a third vestige (Marchosias) at that point and of course could switch out those vestiges for something completely different for missions where sneak attacking is not appropriate (Tenebrous and Aceracak vs undead, etc)

BoVD may not be allowed for Spider Hand. Staggering Strike sounds like a solid feat. Do you have any other recommendations about how to improve the build, other strategies, or other builds that would have a similar flavor?

[8wGremlin]

• @ 1st level be a Human/stoutheart halfling, Beguiler 1st level: take Versatile Spellcaster and Extend Spell
• @ 2nd level take Binder 1st level: gain a flaw (nothing in rules state that you have to take a flaw at 1st level) use that to get Improved Binding make sure you have Intimidate 4 ranks , Knowledge (the planes) 4 ranks
• @ 3rd level + take Anima Mage
• @ 6th level take Persistent Spell

It allows you to get 1 Persisted spell a day @ 7th level; using vestige metamagic (1/day).
You cast as a 6th level beguiler, and have an Effective Binder Level of 8.
Skill points suck, but Int helps with that, as well as 1st level Beguiler.

Would that be of use to you?

EDIT: phaedrusxy pointed out that I can not take a flaw after 1st level without GM approval.

[phaedrusxy]

(nothing in rules state that you have to take a flaw at 1st level)

Except this:

Character Flaws
Flaws are like the flip side of feats. Whereas a feat enables a character to be better than normal at performing a task (or even to do something that normal characters can't), a flaw restricts a character's capabilities or imposes a penalty of some sort.

A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the game master specifically allows it

[8wGremlin]

A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the game master specifically allows it

Thank you phaedrusxy, I hadn't caught that, thank you for pointing it out.

[Empirate]

...Swashbuckler??? I'm mystified. What's that level for? Weapon Finesse? If you want it that much, bind Paimon, or pick it as a regular feat. "Wasting" one level on a non-binding class is bad enough, even though Rogue makes for a strong 1st level due to skills. But Swashy is so completely forgettable, you're hurting your build with it. To wit, you won't be able to bind 6th level vestiges at 11th level the way your build is laid out (only effective Binder level 9 from class levels, +2 for Improved Binding, and an 11th level Binder still binds 5th level vestiges...). So exchange that Swashy level for a Binder level, and you're good. Not to mention that your Pact Augmentation gets a significant upgrade at Binder level 5.

I'd further recommend skipping Persuasive/Negotiator, which are crap feats. Move Improved Binding to be your bonus feat for Binder level 4, pick Weapon Finesse as your regular 3rd level feat instead, and you're good. I'd also skip Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (which would only extend your flurry of misses), and either get some Binder-y goodness like Expel Vestige (lots of versatility during the day when you really need it!), or improve your sneak attack potential with Craven (massive damage boost) or Staggering Strike (massive survivability boost).

[phaedrusxy]

In my experience, Expel Vestige is incredibly useful. I agree completely with Empirate's feat suggestions, and about losing the Swasbuckler level.

[HCL]

Thanks guys!

[Empirate]

You are welcome. Since one usually reads very little concerning Binders, I'd be interested to hear how your PC gets along in play!

[HCL]

We are going to start next week. Here is the build as it stands:

Romeo
Race: Human
Alignment: TN
Base Stats (32 Point Buy): Strength 8, Dexterity 18 (Increase every four levels), Constitution 14, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 10, Charisma 10
Class: Rogue 1 / Binder 6 / Knight of the Sacred Seal (Malphas) 5 / ???

Levels, Abilities, and Feats:
Rogue 1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Two Weapon Fighting, Able Learner (Human Bonus Feat)
Binder 1: Soulbinding (1st level vestiges)
Binder 2: Pact Augmentation 1, Suppress Sign, Weapon Finesse
Binder 3: Bind up to 2nd Level Vestiges
Binder 4: Binder Bonus Feat: Improved Binding (bind 3rd level vestiges)
Binder 5: Pact Augmentation 2, Bind 4th level vestiges, Weapon Focus: Shortsword
Binder 6: Soul Guardian (Immune to fear which makes the character ineligible for Craven  )
KoSS 1: Aligned Strike (Lawful?), Patron Vestige (Malphas), Bind up to 5th level vestiges
KoSS 2: Vestige's Protection, Expel Vestige
KoSS 3: Vestige's Protection Aura, Bind up to 6th Level Vestiges
KoSS 4: Vestige's Power, Soul Binding (Two Vestiges)
KoSS 5: Apotheosis, Vestige's Surge, Bind Up to 7th Level Vestiges, Improved Two Weapon Fighting

[ZombieGirl]

Rather than picking up Expel Vestige, why not just get or craft a vestige phylactery? You can force the vestige out of you when replacing it with the one from the phylactery, saving you a feat slot. Also, knowing how many different situations you could find yourself in in a single gaming session aside from long drawn-out fight scenes, youll definitely want a couple of phylacteries so that you can adapt to any given situation at any time. But theyre quite expensive so its something youll have to grow into i suppose, unless you have a gm generous with loot rewards heheh.