SYWtBaW: Spellbook Handbook Final Draft Review request

[linklord231]

You already spent the time and gold when you wrote the original spell. Secret Page just changes the "text" to look like a different spell, written with the same ink.

Can I take a wand of fireballs and polymorph any item to make it a wand of bestow curse?
No. You need CONVERT WAND, which is a transmutation spell SPECIFICALLY for that task.

You cannot use a general transmutation spell to change the spells inside a wand. You must use the SPECIFIC transmutation spell that handles that effect.

So, we can therefore assume that because secret page does not inform you that you can transform a spell into another spell that you can use, that you cannot do it. All secret page does is scramble the spell so that it appears like a different spell, but that new spell is not a spell you can use.

If you can show my a transmutation spell that performs a general transformation (Polymorph any Object. Shapechange, Anything like that.) and allows you to change the spells in someone's head, or a spell in a potion, or the spell on a scroll, or the spell in a wand, then I will accept the possibility that secret page can change a spell to another spell.

But secret page does not read that way. I can use secret page to make a blank page into a spell. It does NOT need to have a spell there already. There is no "conservation of magic" or whatever you appear to be talking about. I am changing the page. My ability to change it into a working spell is what is in question.

A Shadow Illusion of a spellbook, in theory, even if it was 20% real, should be real enough to learn spells from. I don't think you need a certain threshold of "real" to learn from a spellbook. Shadow Magic supplies everything you need. I don't know of any spell that would allow you to do this, but from the nature of shadow magic, I would accept the possibility of creating a thing that pretended to be a spellbook, and allow someone to learn from it. Such is the nature of shadow created objects.

But Secret Page is a transmutation and must follow the rules of the transmutation school. If a transmutation spell does not specifically allow you to do something, you cannot do it. It is 100% something else, or it is not. Unlike illusions where there are degrees of success.

You do not transform one spell into another. You blank out the page and create something new. Page X disappears. Page Y appears. Page X could be a spell, blank, A gate into the underworld, a horrible curse, or pornography. Don't matter what it IS, it BECOMES something else.

By your logic, if I had a book that held a gate to another universe (There are several that are cannon, BTW), I could use secret page to change the gate page to any other universe I wanted. That would just be silly.

[citation needed]
That's a couple of pretty bold claims you're making there, with no evidence presented.

Also, the reason you can't PAO a wand into a different wand is because PAO doesn't effect magic objects, not because there's some rule saying a spell can't duplicate a different, lower level spell.

[zugschef]

You already spent the time and gold when you wrote the original spell. Secret Page just changes the "text" to look like a different spell, written with the same ink.

Can I take a wand of fireballs and polymorph any item to make it a wand of bestow curse?

May I stop you right there, because that is a stupid argument to make?

The rules text of POA doesn't allow that because it contains nothing indicating something like that, but the rules text of Secret Page explicitly lets you change a page with a spell written on it "to show even another spell".

Secret page alters the contents of a page so that they appear to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell.

Your rambling about how you can't learn a spell from a Secret Page is based on your personal taste and opinion but not on facts or a single citation of the rules. If you would've read my post above your pile of nonsense you would've known that the part with illusion magic is simply you trying to eloquently make a point without having one.

The rules say that the spell can show "even another spell" and since you can learn or prepare spells in written form unless they're a scroll and nothing in the rules says anything different, you can learn and prepare a spell from a Secret Page. Now you either cite the rules how not every recording of a spell lets you do this or the discussion is over.

[lieronet]

I think the use of the word "text" in the spell description is crucial. Subjective argument incoming, but I believe using that specific word there implies that it only changes how the spell appears, not what it actually is. If the spell had been intended as a way to turn one scribed spell into another, I think it would have referred to the spell as a whole, not just the text of it. To further support my argument, I cite the time and money costs of scribing a spell as evidence that something inherently magical takes place in the process of scribing, something that the spell can't duplicate.

Also, from a less subjective viewpoint, the rules tend to tell you what you can do, not what you can't. I suspect that if the spell had been intended to do what you argue it does, it would have been spelled out more clearly, either in the text or in the errata.

[linklord231]

Interesting.  So you would claim that if you had, say, Acid Splash in your spellbook, then used Secret Page to change it to Prestidigitation, when you memorized your spells for the day you'd be reading Prestidigitation but memorizing Acid Splash?  That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. 

As to your second point, you could just as easily point out that the rules do explicitly say that you can turn a spell into a different spell.  They shouldn't have to mention that you can prepare that spell just as you can any other spell, because that's how preparing spells work.  If they didn't mean for you to be able to do that, they could have been more clear, either in the text or errata. 

[lieronet]

I'd argue that trying to memorize the Acid Splash wouldn't do anything, as the magic scribed into the book doesn't match the magic you're reading. More subjective arguments incoming.

Under the rules of copying spellbooks, the rules state that scribing a spell from memory wipes the spell from the wizard's mind the same as casting it. This, to me, implies that there is magic inherent in the scribing that translates to the scribed spell. Changing the text of the spell would not alter this inherent magical energy, just the text of the spell. Therefore, trying to memorize the Acid Splash in your example wouldn't do anything, as you'd be following the recipe to bake a cake with the ingredients for a stir-fry.

Again, highly subjective, but I think that bit under the rules for replacing spellbooks is the closest we'll get to any rules basis for this argument.

[Captnq]

The rules say that the spell can show "even another spell" and since you can learn or prepare spells in written form unless they're a scroll and nothing in the rules says anything different, you can learn and prepare a spell from a Secret Page. Now you either cite the rules how not every recording of a spell lets you do this or the discussion is over.

Fine.

By your rules I can use secret page to put any spell in a spellbook. Want I Smell Your Fear? No Problem. Mass Heal? Yawn. Otyugh Swam? C'mon Give me something HARD! And since it's in my spellbook, I can study it and learn it and cast it.

Why limit myself to spells other people can cast? Why not just secret page up spells on the fly? Wall of Starburst. Makes a wall of tasty, chewy, fruit flavored candy.

Oh wait... That would be bat-shit insane.

Since it clearly isn't the RAI to allow a wizard to use secret page to become the undisputed ruler of time and space. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, we should consider that there needs to be some limitations on how this "another spell" can be used. Since the process is... oh... I dunno... PUTTING A SPELL IN A SPELLBOOK... maybe we should also use the rules for putting spells in spellbooks? Huh? Dontcha tink?

It's one or the other. Either secret page can put any spell in there, or it can't. It doesn't say Arcane only. Doesn't say spells you know. Doesn't say Spells that EXIST! It's another spell. If I choose, I can make a secret page of a spell called, "Tenser's Slipped Disk" When you cast it, your back gives out.

There is no reason WHY I cannot put this spell in the book. I am not disputing that you can put any spell you want in the book, BTW. What I am disputing is that a wizard can read that spell and memorize it and cast it.

So either you allow my Tenser's Slipped Disk spell, or you don't. If you don't, YOU are setting up an arbitrary limitation on the spell. My limitation is not arbitrary. It's based on the rules for scribing spells into spellbooks. In my opinion. All you need is a spellbook and a pile of gold. Bam. Gold disappears, spell in the book. The spell can be memorized. Secret page is transmutation. The need for ink or pens or crap is unimportant. Just the 100 gp/level cost. But it can't "cash in" a spell in a book and liquidate it for something else.

Well, you know what, I take that back. One page in a spellbook is worth 50 gp. So, if you want to permanently destroy two pages to get one new page in your book, I would allow that. But the other two pages of spells are gone, never to be used again.

[Captnq]

After more thought on the matter...

Since I can scribe any spell I know into a book for only 50gp/level and a book is sold of 50gp/level per spell, then I can use secret page to change spells in a book to other spells on a 1 to 1 ratio, on the condition that I know the spell already and that this spell I am making is a copy. The original spell page is destroyed in the process. Re-creation of the original is possible, if I know it and I'm willing to cash in the secret page I just made.

Under this viewpoint, one could take stolen spellbooks and at 10minutes a page "boil down" the stolen spellbook to "scribe" spells using secret page. But the spells in the stolen spellbook are forever destroyed in the process.

[Craiconn]

Great work so far, Captnq.  Keep in mind, that for Wizardly scribing purposes, the Amanuensis spell from the MoF (3.0) has value as well.  The revised and updated SpC (3.5) version not so much.

This GiTP thread kinda has an intriguing progressional concept/theory pattern, but doesn't really end up anywhere.  Still good food for thought though.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?333696-Amanuensis-The-quot-Superior-quot-MoF-Version

[Endarire]

What about d20SRD's variant classes for ACFs?  What about Immediate Magic from PHB2, most notably Abrupt Jaunt?

What about making a section for each Wizard specialization - Abjurerer, Conjurerer, Diviner, Enchanter, Evoker, Illusionist, Necromancer, Transmuter, and Generalist/Universalist?