GISH style Paladin

[Emanresu]

Along the lines of "mystic" I wanted to design a chaotic good Paladin that is hunting down an evil party. I had read a few things that have interested me in this build. The players have rattled the cage, poked sticks in the nest & rocked the boat. They are a cocky group of evil gestalt players, that believe they are now invincible. They murdered a princess and now have brought down the thunder. In our campaign the head of a good guy guild, the champion of all good kings, the shining white knight, is a Arcanist Paladin, of some great power. This is all they know.

I wanted to make this Paladin prestigious, gestalt, sword of arcane order, able to cast arcane and divine spells and any Paladin spell is quickened (what feat does this?) I am basically making this Pali the capstone for this entire province, he is the one, a hero of such renown he is almost worshipped, the BBgg, working his way to minor deity...he is Merlin, Achilles, the son of troy, and Lancelot all in one.

Mystic: This is something I have heard of, basically you have divine blood, this is a perfect fit.

I wanted 1/2 celestial and/or Saint templates if possible, he will be gestalted so this is still on table, but after taking one you dont qualify for the other or could he??? would he even want to have both? If he is Aasimer and uses the BoED LA its cheaper for the HC, right?

he needs to be a stout 16th level, I mean basically broken! just stupid powerful! He will be up to dbl the suggested wealth per lvl, or a weaker but higher levl version of himself. Thats min 16th to max 18th.

He will be a Pali of Freedom entering Prest Pali, Prestigious Paladin because I am ruling, that once he becomes a Pali, that his divine spells (Favored soul) or the generic spellcaster, either way all spells are all now cast as a Pali, thusly qualifying for the feet, whos name escapes me, that allows a Pali to cast quickened spells for free. Also he will able to pick n choose from arcane spells, were talkin one bad muther F'er!


WHAT I AM LOOKING AT IS DESIGNING A EVIL KILLING MACHINE, ALMOST CERTAIN DEATH FOR 1/2 THE PARTY, TPK IS A VERY STRONG POSSIBILITY, BASICALLY IF THE PARTY STAYS TO ENGAGE HIM THEY ARE REALLY TAKING A RISK, ITS ALMOST SUICIDE TO DO SO. Basically your avg pit fiend would run from this guy!


any help, suggestions, feats, spells, class(s), also help with the "mystic" - is this even D&D?

Eman

[linklord231]

Battle Blessing is the feat that auto-quickens paladin spells.

Try Cleric/Prestige Paladin 1/Knight of the Raven//Crusader/Saint.

[vaz]

Mystic from DLcS has some unique domains. I'm AFB so cannot remember exactly; one might have been access to Polymorph, possibly?

Saint, Serenity Paladin, Monk, Ninja with Ki increases, Fist of the Forest and Shiba Protector nets a decent usage of con and Wis all over, leaving you 10 levels of Ur Priest+PrC adaptation (to a dead god) replacing evil with standard spell focus.

[Emanresu]

for a chassis I'm looking at

sword of arcane order, battle blessing, cleric, saint, Prest Paladin, 16th level, valorous weapon,

hate to say this now, but late is better than never, no ToB

Now to the question. How would you rule the swift casting of Paladin spells when coupled with a cleric entry to Prest Paladin?

[linklord231]

I'd say it only applies to spells on the Paladin list. 

[Unbeliever]

I'd say it only applies to spells on the Paladin list.

That's been my approach as well. 

I don't know if it really matters that much -- you've got a great Charisma and Turn Undead, so you can have a ton of Persistent spells to gish with.

[Emanresu]

pocket full a nightsticks! Is wraithstrike persistable? now that would just be mean!

That being said IF one was to become a PP, at 1st level you gain access to the Pali spell list, this to me means that all spells from this list are Pali cast spells and therefor via the battle blessing feat would be "swiftable"

likewise

as soon as PP gives you a bump to cleric spell casting, as if you went up a another level, would not this qualify now as a Paladin spell slots? or is this kinda pushing it? Im gestalting this guy, balancing Cleric on other side of gestalt on dead PP levels sooo while not impossible, this would be hard to monitor.

When coupled with SoTAO, it will be the same Pali spell slot, however, now that spell slot has a arcane spell in it, is it divine or Arcane, reading the SoTAO didnt really clarify. Can I use night sticks to metamagic the spells? or use battle blessing or all of the above because it is simultaneously a divine caster casting a arcane spell, wow is this a head scratcher. 

[linklord231]

I don't think Prestige Paladin is compatible with Sword of the Arcane Order. You don't have any "Paladin spell slots" to prepare wizard spells in.

[Emanresu]

I don't think Prestige Paladin is compatible with Sword of the Arcane Order. You don't have any "Paladin spell slots" to prepare wizard spells in.

So by same rule the PP couldn't use the Battle Blessing feat? would this be your ruling?

thats what I am addressing here as a ? as its kinda ambiguous.  After you become a PP and you entered via fighter/Cleric, you stop progressing in levels of Cleric and start in PP. Upon entry to PP you get access to the Pali spell list, it is my intention to allow the white knight to use these feats but only if the spells are on the Pali spell list, or other legitimate Paladin spell list, as per the unique spells of the PP.

[linklord231]

Battle Blessing refers to "Paladin spells," while SotAO refers to "Paladin spell slots". The difference is that a Prestige Pally had things that could logically be called "Paladin Spells" (ie spells pulled from the standard paladin list), but nothing that could be called a Paladin spell slot.

[KellKheraptis]

Battle Blessing refers to "Paladin spells," while SotAO refers to "Paladin spell slots". The difference is that a Prestige Pally had things that could logically be called "Paladin Spells" (ie spells pulled from the standard paladin list), but nothing that could be called a Paladin spell slot.

The breaking point is that RAW they -all- are, as a regular paladin doesn't exist alongside PrPally.  My Prestige Pally builds abuse the hell out of this, though there are certainly more elegant ways of doing it.

Let me finish dinner, and I'll make you a gish that will make that party piss itself.

[SorO_Lost]

Hmm.. Suggestions but no full build.

Mystic Fire Knight
ACF out of FR:CV, increases CL and adds Dispel to Smite Evil.

Sword of the Arcane Order
A must have. Swaps in Int-Based casting but gives you access to the Wizard's Spell List (amazing buffs).

Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Divine Metamagic(persist)
Couple of Persisted buffs via Turn Undead.

Initiate of Milil, Devoted Performer. ~Optional Words of Creation, Dragonfire Inspiration
More Feat intensive than Smite to Song but fully grants Bardic Music (including courage, competence, greatness & heroics) per Paladin Level for near Gestalt. Words of Creation to double bonuses and Dragonfire to turn it into party bonus damage.

Feat Uncanny Trickster 2/ Legacy Champion 2 / Bloodline 3 ~Optional Ascetic Knight & Monk 1 &&/|| Devoted Tracker & Ranger 1
Bonus mobility-based Feats and dirty Bloodline math. +11 to effective Paladin level for LoH and Smite for the cost of 7 levels, or +15 Smite at the cost of 8 levels or +19 Smite at the cost of 9 levels.

Shroudcrown
Gain Turn Undead as a 10th level Cleric, expensive but adds 3+ChaMod Turns for DMM(persist). Exceptionally potent with high Charisma.

Misc Items
Perfect's Vestment (Raven): +1 turn & smite per day for 6k.
Noble Pennon (MiC 166): +2 to smite evil damage.
Mighty Smiting (MiC 39): +2 to attack/damage while smiting, also +1 use per day.
Vigilant Halberd (A&E): doubles smite damage.
Nightstick(LM): +4 turn/day.
Reliquary Holy Symbol(MiC 120): up to +3 turn/day for 1k.

Actually to follow up the Bloodline

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Monk 1 / Paladin 1 / Ranger 1 / Bard 1 / Paladin +5 / Pious Templar 1 / Uncanny Trickster(pious) 2 / Gray Guard 2 / Legacy Champion(gray) 2 / Bloodline 3 /  Anything 1
Feats: Weapon Focus^F, Ascetic Knight^3rd, Devoted Tracker^6th, Devoted Performer^9th, True Believer^12th.
Monk, Ranger & Bard to Paladin's Smite Evil, each Class gains +3 towards calculations as well. Gray Guard & Pious both obtain stacking Smite Evil thanks to Trickster/Legacy.

Smite Evil: +43 (+215 charging) = +9 paladin, +4 monk, +4 ranger, +4 bard, +5 pious, +5 gray, +4 trickster, +4 champion, +2 noble pennon, +2 mighty smiting, x2 vigilant halberd, x3 charging smite, x2 devastating smite.

[KellKheraptis]

Emanresu (I've left handed and can read just as easily in mirror print, so that seriously screws with my eyes ), are psionics allowed?

[Emanresu]

Emanresu (I've left handed and can read just as easily in mirror print, so that seriously screws with my eyes ), are psionics allowed?

Yes, Psionics no problem, as for the left handed mirror thing I didnt get that

vigilant halberd, how much would this cost if it only offered the +2 per level w/ smite, loosing the +4 and the defender enchantments

[Emanresu]

Smite Evil: +43 (+215 charging) = +9 paladin, +4 monk, +4 ranger, +4 bard, +5 pious, +5 gray, +4 trickster, +4 champion, +2 noble pennon, +2 mighty smiting, x2 vigilant halberd, x3 charging smite, x2 devastating smite.

so what your saying is be a smite evil specialist, valorous weapon would have to come into play here somewhere x2 damage w/ charge
the damage is already able to one shot TPK the entire party...now to only get them lined up in a row, for the stooge slap.

the PCs would never allow him to charge them on a horse to deliver a knock out blow, they'd fly, wall of force, D door, something other than standing there saying come get some! they are cocky but not entirely stupid.

Im thinking this Pali will be hasted, and move very fast on his own, a "non" mount version, maybe even a "leap" on the hapless evil bastard, thoughts? reason why the party would take this fight to the city where they can utilize innocents as shields
 

[SorO_Lost]

It was merely an exercise in how far I could be progress Smite Evil, but it deals +86 with each (+43 base & x2 for the halberd), casting Devastating Smite during an all out Full-Attack still deals +387.

I figured you'd be more game for the idea of Initiate of Milil & Devoted Performer through. Initiate of Milil requires a couple Ranks in Perform, Paladin 4th, and of course to worship Milil. It stacks your Cleric, Paladin, and Bard levels together to determine your access to Bardic Music but you still need to meet Perform Rank Requirements. So you can pick up Bardic Music along with Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage and Inspire Competence as a 3rd level Feat, but you have no uses per day. This is where Devoted Performer comes in, it requires Bardic Music and Smite Evil and stacks your Bard & Paladin Levels to determine the number of Bardic Music uses you have per day. This lets you pick up Inspire Courage optimization on a Paladin such as +12d6 Dragonfire or even use Metamagic Song to Persist even more Spells per day.

Less of a numbers to play with when bored build through since it's like 2~6 Feats

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Mystic Fire Knight Paladin 6 / Feat Uncanny Trickster 3 / Legacy Champion 10 / Crusader 1
Extend Spell^F, Persist Spell^F, Sword of the Arcane Order^1st, Divine Metamagic(persist)^{Metamagic Storm}, Initiate of Milil^3rd, Devoted Performer^6th, Metamagic Song^9th, Battle Blessing^12th, Words of Creation^15th, Any^18th.
Not sure what CR Metamagic Storm is *shurgs*, the build obtains +11 bonus Feats all of which have to be justified to enhance mobility or defense (endure blows x11 for DR 22/-?), 16th level Bardic Music and effective Paladin level for Smite/Companion/LoH/etc. It picks up of course a Legacy Item, I'd ask about a custom one but if that's off the table check out the ones offered in Tome of Battle for more Maneuvers.

Pretty aimless overall. Just seeks to burn 3+ChaMod Turns & 16 Musics on Persist costs to have the best buffs it can find of the Paladin and Wizard Spell Lists and steals one of the greatest party buffers of all time (inspire courage). Needs some flavor and direction.

[KellKheraptis]

I'll keep this at level 16, for fairness to the opponents :

Cloistered Cleric of Mystra 5/Divine Disciple 5/Dweomerkeeper 6||Psychic Warrior 16

Usual Cheater of Mystra up the cleric side, and Dragoon tactics up PsyWar, using the bonus feats to snag Leap Attack and friends to send your damage into the stratosphere.  You can bend time with ease using psionics, and with temporal acceleration rebuff the powers that might fade or get dispelled, or reposition for a better attack.  Remember: you are a Paladin in every sense of the word, just not in class.  And you FAR eclipse any paladin, with the possible exception of my War Mages that exploit similar dirty tricks.  You can snag a free spell every round if you use schism for example, and if you load up on the powers granting teleportation as a move/standard action, can get several charging full attacks per round.

I'm still working on the no holds barred version, but this should give you some food for thought in the mean time

Also, if you REALLY want a Paladin-paladin, I'll dig up my build that snagged 9's at level 16

[Emanresu]

yes a paladin paladin, he is a gish/pali, the hero of heroes, the white knight
ar champ is a possibility?