Low optimisation, Character build focussing on Master Thrower.

[harleykareme]

Hey everyone, hope you're all well.

Was hoping for a bit of help with making a character for a 3.5e DnD. DM is pretty open to anything, so long as it's discussed with him before hand, he's particularly big on RPing, & pretty big on rewarding players for being true to their character, whether it's magic items, XP, gold or even feats. He does like to test us by throwing us against enemies who are slightly above us in power, partially to kill off people & to challenge us to find inventive & creative ways to navigate obstacles.

Anyway, the party is currently entirely lack in in a party face. I've modelled the character concept heavily off the R.A. Salvatore character http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Jarlaxle_Baenre from FR, however the world is of the DM's own design. The party is currently comprised of:

Neutral human druid, classic defender of nature; last week turned on a couple of the party members for attacking nymph's & ents without provocation.

A Chaotic good tiefling rogue, standard dagger SA, trapfinder.

Chaotic good halfling druid... No companion, has claws for hands & has a tendency to run off in random directions. Bizarre character concept, but the guy playing it does a marvellous job of roleplaying his character & contributes quite a lot to the party.

Chaotic neutral (I think) kobold rogue, he has kleptomania & sneak attacks a lot. Is role played really well & both he & the DM have discussed in depth how to make the kleptomania a plot twist. He basically rolls a will save anytime he sees something shiny; belt buckles, spoons, scrap metal or whatever it might be & whether or not he can avoid trying to collect it.

Human paladin/hellreaver thing, Lawful good, runs around smiting the enemies of Bahamut with a halberd.

Characters are currently level 7, DM has expressed the intention to head as high as 20+ if the game makes it that far.

I am not looking for game-breaking optimisation, or undermine anyone in the party, I enjoy the social aspects of the game but I would also like to contribute & not be dead-weight in combat.

Priorities are as follows:

1. Social skills & being the party face, particularly bluff & diplomacy.
2. A bit of support in the form of heavy use of wands & UMD
3. Contributing to combat

Pretty much any book is allowed, though my DM likes to go over what we're using before we start, though no flaws & traits. LA buyout is also allowed. No more than three classes, only one of which may be a PrC. Really like the idea of the master thrower PrC from CW.

I got a pretty decent roll for stats. 8, 18, 14, 16, 11, 14 (Excluding Drow bonuses, +2 Dex, Int, Cha & -2 Con)

The Character: Build 1

Neutral Evil, Drow
STR 8, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 16

For Thrown Weapon Tricks was thinking; Trip shot, sneaky shot & weak spot

1 Rogue: Point Blank Shot, 1d6 SA & Poison Use (DrU)
2 Fighter: Weapon Focus (Daggers {B}), Hit-and-Run Tactics (DrU), Skilled City Dweller (Tumble & Gather Information)
3 Fighter: Precise Shot, Weapon Finesse {B}
4 Rogue: Evasion, +1 Dex
5 Rogue: 2d6 SA, Penetrating Strike (Dung)
6 Rogue: Two-weapon Fighting, Uncanny Dodge
7 Master Thrower: Quick Draw {B}

Rest of the levels will be Master thrower 5 & then rogue to 20. Master thrower gives me full BAB for the 5 levels & stacks with rogue for improved evasion, and finishes on an odd level for SA progression as well as two rogue abilities. Hit-and-run tactics (DrU) gives me +Dex to Damage against flat-footed opponents & +2 Initiative.

The Character: Build 2

Neutral Evil, Drow
STR 8, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 16

For Thrown Weapon Tricks was thinking; Trip shot, sneaky shot & weak spot

1 Rogue: Point Blank Shot, 1d6 SA & Poison Use (DrU)
2 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finesse {B}
3 Swashbuckler: Weapon Focus (Dagger), Grace
4 Swashbuckler: Dex +1, Insightful strike
5 Rogue: Evasion
6 Rogue: 2d6 SA, Penetrating Strike (Dung), Precise Shot
7 Master Thrower: Quick Draw {B}

Take 5 levels of Master Thrower, a 4th level of rogue, daring outlaw & 11 levels of swashbuckler.

DM has okayed me to take gloves of endless javelins, modified to a bracer slot, gloves of dex +2, and a couple of wands, including wand of grease & wand of web. Also using the Swashbuckler ACFs Swift and Deadly (DrU), allows me to take a 5' step after attacking with a weapon in each hand, in addition to the normal 5' step for making a full-round attack, means I can make a full attack, move 10', and force opponents to have to move, and deny them full attacks. Also taking the ACF Shield of Blades, instead of dodge, whereby I get a level dependant shield bonus if I attack an enemy with two light weapons.

The Character: Build 3
The same as Build 2, but swap dex & int stats at character creation, replace rogue levels with 3 of factotum to get Brains to Brawn, pick up Int instead of dex for attribute increases & grab a headband of int instead of gloves of dex. In addition to the ACFs aforementioned for the swashbuckler, would probably take Arcane Stunt, CM, to cast Blur 1+Int/day, with a 1 round duration.


I think that is everything, look forward to hearing from you & if I have forgotten anything or post in the wrong thread, let me knows.



Cheers,

Harley.

EDIT: Forgot about Swashie ACFs.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Your party has 2 Druids and 3 Rogues ... umm 

If you can, there are lots of ways to handle PC concepts
without locking into 1 specific class.  Examples:

Followed the link, infinite "magic" daggers = Soulbow PrC.
Very good non-detection is the Slayer PrC.
Quickstart Cleric Archer using philosophies, instead of a deity.

[Shadowhunter]

Well, I'm a little curious how a Lawful Good paladin stood by as the Neutral Good druid got into an altercation with party members over spilled blood. Or how he'll get along with a Neutral Evil character. That aside, here's some thoughts:


Overall impression:
I like build 2 best, followed by 1, 3 last. I like factotums, but the combination Swash/Factotum/MT doesn't tickle my taste buds honestly. Not sure why, maybe just a personal preference.

Mechanics issue:
Sneaky Shot requires a move action to activate, so you can't use it with a full attack.

Possible future feats:
In Dragon Compendium, there is a feat on page 95.

DEAD EYE [GENERAL]
Your precision with ranged weapons translates into more telling strikes than you could normally make.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon), base attack bonus +14.

Benefit: You may add your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls made with ranged weapons for which
you have the Weapon Focus feat, so long as the target is within 30 feet.

Special: Dead Eye does not increase the damage dealt to creatures immune to critical hits.
A fighter may select Dead Eye as one of his fighter bonus feats.

NOTE: As per the errata, the BAB requirement drops from a staggering +14 to a minimal +1.

For the sneak attack route, there's Craven in Champions of Ruin. -2 to Will saves vs. fear effects, but gives +character level as damage to your sneak attack roll.

Other than that, you've done a admirable job already and I commend you on an excellent and informative thread


PS: Does that kobold happen to be inspired by the Kenders from DragonLance perchance?

[harleykareme]

Your party has 2 Druids and 3 Rogues ... umm 

If you can, there are lots of ways to handle PC concepts
without locking into 1 specific class.  Examples:

Followed the link, infinite "magic" daggers = Soulbow PrC.
Very good non-detection is the Slayer PrC.
Quickstart Cleric Archer using philosophies, instead of a deity.

Haha I know, I reinforce the low, or perhaps more correctly, non-existent, optimisation.

I did checkout the suggestions you made in regards to classes & I found the soul bow particularly interesting, however I don't think it fits with what I am trying to do with my character. I think if I was going to introduce psionics, I'd just drop a Telepath up in my DMs grills. I read Dictumm Mortum's blogspot about the QCA, but for role-play reasons I want to avoid following the path of divine worshipper.

Though, I am totally curious about what you mean by philosophies rather than deities? Simply replacing the deity, with a philosophy or is it some kind of published alternate?

Well, I'm a little curious how a Lawful Good paladin stood by as the Neutral Good druid got into an altercation with party members over spilled blood. Or how he'll get along with a Neutral Evil character. That aside, here's some thoughts:


Overall impression:
I like build 2 best, followed by 1, 3 last. I like factotums, but the combination Swash/Factotum/MT doesn't tickle my taste buds honestly. Not sure why, maybe just a personal preference.

Mechanics issue:
Sneaky Shot requires a move action to activate, so you can't use it with a full attack.

Possible future feats:
In Dragon Compendium, there is a feat on page 95.

DEAD EYE [GENERAL]
Your precision with ranged weapons translates into more telling strikes than you could normally make.

Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon), base attack bonus +14.

Benefit: You may add your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls made with ranged weapons for which
you have the Weapon Focus feat, so long as the target is within 30 feet.

Special: Dead Eye does not increase the damage dealt to creatures immune to critical hits.
A fighter may select Dead Eye as one of his fighter bonus feats.

NOTE: As per the errata, the BAB requirement drops from a staggering +14 to a minimal +1.

For the sneak attack route, there's Craven in Champions of Ruin. -2 to Will saves vs. fear effects, but gives +character level as damage to your sneak attack roll.

Other than that, you've done a admirable job already and I commend you on an excellent and informative thread


PS: Does that kobold happen to be inspired by the Kenders from DragonLance perchance?

I believe the entire incident occurred as I result of a party member rolling a 1 to hit, shooting an arrow into a kobold, which then resulted in a section of forest going up in flames... Needless to say, as much as I love my DM, I don't at all enjoy rolling a 1...

As far as LG Paldin & neutral evil drow go, the DMs world is currently focussed around an area that is a bit more accepting of the Drow, despite their well known racial tendency for cruelty, violence & evil... As far as being in the party goes, being neutral evil means I will quite happily go along with "good actions" so long as they further my characters own desire for wealth & power... Though it was quite fantastic watching that very same paladin cut off his real-life brother's character's chaotic stupid sorcerer's head....

Anyway back on track, in regards to the Swash/Factotum build, I do agree, wholeheartedly... I love the Factotum, however I think it is definitely something to be taken to 20, rather than be dipped, I feel you lose too much of the flavour. I couldn't ignore the synergy however.

I am leaning somewhere between builds 1 & 2, personally, although at the moment I feel it is a toss up between +2 Int, +Dex to damage over the flavour of the Swash brings.. Then again, perhaps therein lies my answer?

I was aware that sneaky shot required a move action, however most of the other tricks seem rather naff, do you have any suggestions over Sneaky Shot? I had considered working towards getting a belt of battle in the future, and using it 3/day to take additional move actions and attempting to apply sneak shot to a full round attack?

Dead Eye looks awesome, the DM might even consider it, considering quite a bit of consideration, time and development seems to have gone into making it balanced.

I hadn't really considered Craven, cause it's a feat.

Thank you both for your comments, if there is anything else, I look forward to it.

I hadn't considered the kender in it's creation, though it definitely seems like it could be a distinct possibility. Though I do commend both the DM & player for coming up with a way to manage the kobold's kleptomania without having the party devolve into slaughtering each other.. Though there is still 13 levels left...

Cheers,

H

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Clerics can pick from their Deities' domains
xOR they can pick 2 domains as their philosophy(-ies).


Feat Rogue 2 / Battle Sorc 8 / Eldritch Knight 10
... is another basic build stub, variations go wherever.

[Jackinthegreen]

The PHB itself says clerics can choose philosophies to worship.  The information can be found on page 30 in the second paragraph under the "Religion" heading.  The text reads:

"Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a
source of divine power. These characters wield magic the way clerics
devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with any
religious institution or any particular practice of worship. A cleric
devoted to good and law, for example, may be on friendly terms with
the clerics of lawful and good deities and may extol the virtues of a
good and lawful life, but he is not a functionary in a church
hierarchy."

[Shadowhunter]

Honestly, there's slim pickins' concerning a substitute to Sneaky Shot. Let's see, the tricks not picked are Deadeye Shot, Defensive Throw, Doubletoss, Palm Throw, Tumbling Toss and Two with One Blow.

Deadeye is, at best, highly "meh".
Defensive Throw is only good if there's an advantage to throwing your daggers as opposed to just stabbing people with them. The only difference in throwing and stabbing apart from the range difference is Point Blank Shot. So... no. Maybe after the Deadeye feat, but just maybe..
Doubletoss is just bad. It could have some uses, but not for you.
Palm Throw is only good if your bonus damage isn't precision based, which yours are, so no.
Trip Shot depends on if you want to dabble in crowd control... oh wait, your already doing so. With much better stuff, namely spells in wands. Pass.
Tumbling Toss.... eh, no. Unless you really want to disengage and throw a single dagger against someone specific rather than stab whatever is in your way multiple times.

Two with One Blow is worded poorly, but I guess the intention is to be able to attack two targets adjacent to each other at a -4 to hit penalty. It mentions requiring to confirm critical hits separately, makes no mention how conditional precision damage (sa) is resolved and most importantly, doesn't specify if it can be done within a full attack or if it only applies to standard action attacks. Which makes it maybe worth it, depending on how your DM think it works.

[harleykareme]

Honestly, there's slim pickins' concerning a substitute to Sneaky Shot. Let's see, the tricks not picked are Deadeye Shot, Defensive Throw, Doubletoss, Palm Throw, Tumbling Toss and Two with One Blow.

Deadeye is, at best, highly "meh".
Defensive Throw is only good if there's an advantage to throwing your daggers as opposed to just stabbing people with them. The only difference in throwing and stabbing apart from the range difference is Point Blank Shot. So... no. Maybe after the Deadeye feat, but just maybe..
Doubletoss is just bad. It could have some uses, but not for you.
Palm Throw is only good if your bonus damage isn't precision based, which yours are, so no.
Trip Shot depends on if you want to dabble in crowd control... oh wait, your already doing so. With much better stuff, namely spells in wands. Pass.
Tumbling Toss.... eh, no. Unless you really want to disengage and throw a single dagger against someone specific rather than stab whatever is in your way multiple times.

Two with One Blow is worded poorly, but I guess the intention is to be able to attack two targets adjacent to each other at a -4 to hit penalty. It mentions requiring to confirm critical hits separately, makes no mention how conditional precision damage (sa) is resolved and most importantly, doesn't specify if it can be done within a full attack or if it only applies to standard action attacks. Which makes it maybe worth it, depending on how your DM think it works.

I agree with you on Dead Eye, especially since I've been considering swapping the weapon focus to darts, I figure 20' range is better than the crit multiplier. Everything I've read has said that crit fishing is relatively inefficient.

Defensive throw, seems redundant. If I need to get into melee, I can drop my daggers, quick draw two short swords or two light maces & get into melee.

Doubletoss, again seems redundant for my build, which ideally would be focussed around denying dex bonus, then making full round attacks. If I was going for Factotum8+/MT5, it might have a place, as I could abuse the bonus standard actions the factotum class grants.

Palm throw is what I was leaning towards to be honest, simply because I figure an additional 1d4 damage is better than anything else available.

Trip shot again seems redundant for the build, especially since I have every intention of maxing UMD. Plus, as far as I have been able to understand... making something prone, doesn't actually deny it it's bonus to dex, meaning I can't add my SA die & prone targets get +4 AC against ranged attacks.... Admittedly, I do suppose it gives quite a bit of synergy for the shapeshifting druids & the paladin.

Tumbling toss, again, seems to defeat the purpose of denying dex & making full attacks.

Two with One Blow, seems better than anything else... Not much more, but it's something I guess, As you said, it however depends on whether the DM would allow it to work with a full round attack. It would be highly situational, however the potential to hit two foes, with full attacks seems pretty cool, especially if I can both flat footed.

The other thing I wanted to add, would it be worth taking a level or two of Swordsage? Most likely a single level, as the WIS to AC isn't going to do much for me. However, it would allow me to get access to the Shadowhand manoeuvres, particularly Discipline Focus to get weapon focus with daggers and short swords, and dropping the feat tax of weapon focus. Also gives me a decent boost to my will saves.

Adding the sword sage, would require convincing the DM to remove his limit on 3 classes however. I admit class choice isn't integral to PC concept, how I really like some of the ACFs that Swash gives me access to namely, being able to move and attack etc etc.

And thank you Shadowhunter, I appreciate your time.

[Shadowhunter]

You're welcome 

Yes, Doubletoss could work with the Factotum idea, that's true.

Yeah, 2 levels of Swordsage for the free Weapon Focus (dagger) and some nifty maneuvers and Assassins stance would be quite good for you. I've avoided mentioning it since you could only pick 3 classes total. The second level is so that you can pick up Assassin Stance which is a 3rd level Stance that gives 2d6 sneak attack.

Nifty maneuvers I'd pick up would be Cloak of Deception for that 1 round of Greater Invisibility (Shadow Hand), Shadow Stride for a 50 feet standard action teleport (Shadow Hand), Mountain Hammer to punch through rocks (Stone Dragon), Flashing Sun for more attacks (Desert Wind), among others.
As far as I know, the maneuvers you pick up at the first level in Swordsage does not need to be 1st level maneuvers. So, let's say you pick up Swordsage at character level 5, with Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 1 before that. Your initator level is 3, so 2nd level maneuvers. The stance you learn is a 1st level one, hence the need for the second level in Swordsage to pick up stance number 2, Assassins Stance.

I'm pretty sure all this is old news to you, but on the off chance that it isn't...