Author Topic: [3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust  (Read 7582 times)

Offline 7h39

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[3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust
« on: September 20, 2014, 04:29:45 PM »
Hi everyone, i've this concept in mind of the ultimate "blasting" power for psions, and obv i thought about "TT" as it's mentionated into the Psion's handbook like this: "This power is potentially the only direct damage power you’ll ever need. Toss 15 Greatswords at an enemy for 30d6 damage".

WOW

But it has some problems:
1- Damage reduction, weapons as mundane items incurr into DR (DR applies to every single instance of damage right?). enchanting 10+ weapons it's too costly to do.
2- Availability/Transportation of a large number of weapons to toss.

I thought to (partially) bypass those flaws utilizing Call Weaponry/Call Item Powers.

First of all we must define if Ammunitions are weapons or not. Srd put them into the Weapon Chapter and follow weapon enchanting/crafting process, so i'll count them as weapons (for Call Weaponry).
Note that if judged mundane equipment also Call Item has it benefits: where Call Weaponry teleports "magic weapons" for bypassing DR, Call Item can teleport items of various materials, while being under the price limit.

Secondly i assume that Telekinetic Thrust has the same wording of Telekinesis for the missing "Charisma" part:

Quote from: SRD
Telekinesis
Violent Thrust
(cut)
You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).

Telekinetic Thrust
You must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target of the hurled items with the items, applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier. Hurled weapons deal their standard damage (your Strength bonus does not apply; arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects deal damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds of weight (for less dangerous objects such as an empty barrel) to 1d6 points per 25 pounds of weight (for hard, dense objects such as a boulder).

Tell me if this assumption it's erroneous, but i read somewhere that the text could be associated with the spell.

Base Build

Psion 1- Feats: Linked Power, Psionic Meditation
Psion 3- Feat: Expanded Knowledge (Call Weaponry)
Psion 5- Feat: Metapower (LinkedPower,Call Weaponry) | BAB:+2 INT 20 (+5)

So, @5th level we can hurl up to 5 object with a total weitght of 250lbs.
Manifesting a CallWeaponry Linked to Telekinetic Thrust we pay 4pp to create a Arrow Quiver or leather pouch that holds 10 bullets, and manifest TT on the next turn before ammunitions fade off.
Quote from: SRD, under the weapon description
Arrows
An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2). Arrows come in a leather quiver that holds 20 arrows. An arrow that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Bullets, Sling
Bullets come in a leather pouch that holds 10 bullets. A bullet that hits its target is destroyed; one that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

in game mechanincs: Medium Arrows (20) 1gp|1d4|3lb|Piercing or Medium Bullets (10) 1sp|1d4|5lb|Bludgeoning.

Thx to call weaponry we can cover Magic/Piercing/Bludgeoning DR at once (too bad for cold iron and/or silver :( ), however the damage output it's very low 4pp/5d4 with a Ranged Attack (not touch :|) but no Save/SR.

By Call Weaponry: "You don’t have to see or know of a weapon to call it—in fact, you can’t call a specific weapon; you just specify the kind", kind it's a not-defined game word, but within weapons chapter in SRD we have Weapon Categories and then Weapon Qualities. Catergories are more general then Qualities

Quote
Categories:
- Simple, Martial, and Exotic Weapons [Proficency]
- Melee and Ranged Weapons (subcategories: Reach Weapons, Double Weapons, Thrown Weapons, Projectile Weapons, Ammunition) [area of use]
- Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons [encumbrance]
- Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal [Size]

Qualities
Cost|Dmg (S)|Dmg (M)|Critical|Range Increment|Weight|Type
So if you specify a lognsword as a called weapon you are automatically defining all those characteristics that define what's a medium-sized longsword, including size. Moreover if a small creature (i hope) can choose to call a small-sized weapon wehere the power don't mention any realtion between the size of manifester and the one of the weapon called, i think size it's arbitrary and customizable feature.

Assumed we can call for a weapon of any size, waht's the highest size category in game? Epic Levels Handbook defines Colossal+ for Epic Dragons and it's 5increments from medium.

By Rule compedium/Srd:
Quote
COST
This value is the weapon’s cost in coins. The cost includes all miscellaneous
gear that goes with the weapon, such as a sheath. This
cost is the same for a Small or Medium version of the weapon.
A larger version costs twice the noted price per size category
larger than Medium. A smaller version costs half the price per
two size categories smaller than Medium (round up).
WEIGHT
This is the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. A
larger version weighs twice as much per size category larger
than Medium. A smaller version weighs half as much per
size category smaller than Medium.

it's unclear if the formula it's 2x[# of Size Increase] or 2^# #=number of size increse? In any case i choose the worst case scenario for 2^5= x32

the result is:

Colossal+ Arrows (20) 32gp|4d6|96lb/4,8 each|Piercing
Colossal+ Bullets (10) 32sp|4d6|160lb/16 each|Bludgeoning

Both within weight limits. for 4d6x5 (average 70) damage @ECL5

Setting the baseline for the build how do you continue it/improve it (in particular against DR)?

BAB becomes a important reqirement, it's Wilder better then a Psion for the 3/4 BAB (+1 at 5th and 6th level)?

What do you think about Psion6/Ranger1/Slayer X (losing 2 ML) or Psion8/Slayer X (losing 1ML)? other bab builds?

Thx for reading ;)

Edit: Teorical damage @ECL5 - 250lb./5 Objects

Medium Arrows (5) 0.25gp|1d4|0.75lb|Piercing
Size Colossal++++ (8 Size Increase) -> Multiplier: x256
Colossal++++ Arrows (5) 64gp|8d6|192lb|Piercing
8d6 x5 = 140average
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 04:59:31 PM by 7h39 »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2014, 05:21:42 PM »
We've had a lot of posts on this subject before, I don't have any specific links but it's mostly a wash.

1. DR does apply on each and every single hit, and since you're not using a Full-Round Action Precision Damage doesn't apply.
2. Bag of Holding, when turned inside out, expels all of it's contents setting up your ammunition.
3. You are limited to 15 items tossed, you removed that section of the rules in your quotes.
4. You also have a maximum weight limit, 375lbs.
(click to show/hide)

5. There is no true limitation on Weapon Size, however due to 3 & 4...
(click to show/hide)
You can work out the exact combination of arrows for the perfect launch, the easy sweet spot for both within limitations and same size is noted in blue for CL15.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:57:08 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline SolEiji

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Re: [3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2014, 07:40:44 PM »
I like how these Macro-Tiny arrows are like 500 ft long.  XD
Mudada.

Offline 7h39

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Re: [3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2014, 07:55:34 PM »
1- Ok as i remember :)
2- Nice Trick! in this case i don't need call weaponry/arrows trick anymore.. just the right COLOSSAL weapon in the right numbers. Is "turning inside out" a free/move/standar or full round action?
3/4- my intent was on Telekinetic Thrust power, i quoted Telekinesis spell for the reference at the sorcerer's charima that's absent in TThrust (Int only to Attack roll).
With TThrust weight is fixed at 250lb (but agumentable) and 1target/level as for Telekinesis spell. Initally you get 50lb/ML (within power cost) and when manifesting it @ML9 you can thrust up to 350lb, more then the spell (225lb @CL9)
Quote
Telekinetic Thrust
Psychokinesis
Level:   Psion/wilder 3
Display:   Visual
Manifesting Time:   1 standard action
Range:   Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./ level)
Target or Targets:   One or more objects or creatures with a total weight of 250 lb. or less
Duration:   Instantaneous
Saving Throw:   Will negates or Will negates (object); see text
Power Resistance:   Yes or Yes (object); see text
Power Points:   5
You can affect one or more objects or creatures by concentrating your mind upon, sending them in a deadly hail at your foes—or simply by hurling your foe! You can hurl one object or creature per manifester level (maximum fifteen separate targets), as long as all are within the power’s range and each is no more than 10 feet away from another one. Each object or creature can be hurled a maximum distance of 10 feet per level.
You must succeed on ranged attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target of the hurled items with the items, applying your Intelligence modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier. Hurled weapons deal their standard damage (your Strength bonus does not apply; arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects deal damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds of weight (for less dangerous objects such as an empty barrel) to 1d6 points per 25 pounds of weight (for hard, dense objects such as a boulder).
Creatures are allowed Will saves (and power resistance) to negate the effect, as are those whose held possessions are targeted by this power.
If you use this power to hurl a creature against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points).
Augment
For every additional power point you spend, the weight limit of the target or targets increases by 25 pounds.
5- Nice chart! where did you find/how did you make it from? In Srd the dagger has this damage progression:
Quote
Dagger   —   1   1d2   1d3   1d4   1d6   1d8   2d6   3d6
but hey more damage is better!

I like how these Macro-Tiny arrows are like 500 ft long.  XD
The average arrow it's 50cm long (i use metric sistem lol) and Colossal++++ (macro Tiny i guess) has x256multiplier for his mass.
1 medium arrow: 0,15lb.  -> 1 Colossal++++ Arrow: 25,6lb (for my calculations). if we assume that the arrow is scaled up in every dimension, means that a single dimension have a x6,4 increment (256-3) -> 340cm = 11.1549ft not too big LOL


Edit: - The right tool for the right job -

Embracing the "bag of holding inside out" method we can forsake Colossal++++ Arrows and strict by raw (Rules compendium: Size The nine size categories, in order from smallest to largest, are Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal) to the maxiumum Colossal size for the weapon.

Medium -> Colossal = x16
Quote from: Weapon with the best damage/weight rateo
1- Dart|5 sp|1d4|×2|   ½ lb.   |Piercing | Rateo 5 | ---> Colossal 8gp|3d6|x2|8lb|
2- Siangham|3 gp|1d6|×2|1 lb.|Piercing| Rateo 3 | ---> Colossal 48gp|4d6|x2|16lb
3- Longsword|15 gp|1d8|19-20/×2|4 lb.|Slashing| Rateo 1.125| ---> Colossal 240gp|6d6|19-20x2|64lb
4- Sword, bastard|35 gp|1d10|19-20/×2|6 lb.|Slashing| Rateo 0,91| ---> Colossal 560gp|6d8|19-20x2|96lb
5- Greatsword|50 gp|2d6|19-20/×2|8 lb.|Slashing| Rateo 0,87| ---> Colossal 800gp|8d6|19-20x2|128lbs

The remaining problem it's damage reduction, trying to bypass it by finding always the right weapon it' very difficult/need specific build, so i'll try to OVERCOME it by raw damage. At low level DR5, mid 10 and 15 for high levels, i'm going to stet the best solution for every step ML5(when TT comes in)/9(when Telekinesis comes in)/15(Telekinesis/TT max out)

To optimize damage it's better reduce the weight of the weapons:
Quote from: Weight reducing Materials
- BlueIce (frostburn): 1/2 weight, +1 enhancement bonus on damage (Melts like iron if you're asking) | +500gp for slashing weapons, +400gp/lb for other things
- Mithral: 1/2 weight | 500gp/lb
- Duskwood (Magic of Faerun): 1/2 weight | +1500gp for weapons

ML 5 - up to 5targets/250lbs./WbL9000gp - Vs DR5

 3 Colossal Longsword 240gp|6d6|19-20x2|64lb = [720gp]|[3x(6d6-5)=48]|[192lbs] + 2 Colossal Siangham 48gp|4d6|x2|16lb [100gp]|[2x(4d6-5)=18]|[32lb] = Total 820gp| 66 average damage |224lb.

ML 9 - up to 9targets/250lbs.+100lbs/WbL36000gp - Vs DR10

3 Colossal Masterwork BluIce Longsword [(15gp+500gp)x16 +300]=8550gp|6d6-10+1 [12]|19-20x2|32lb = [25650gp]|[36dmg]|[96lbs] + 3 Colossal Longsword 240gp|6d6-10 [11]|19-20x2|64lb = [720gp]|[33]|[192lbs] +3 Colossal Siangham 48gp|4d6-10 [3]|x2|16lb = [150gp]|[9]|[48lb]= 26520gp|78dmg|336lbs

ML 15 - up to 15targets/250lbs.+250lbs/WbL200,000gp - Vs DR15

10 Colossal Masterwork BluIce BastardSword [(35+500gp)x16 +300gp= 8900gp|(6d8 -15+1)=13 |19-20x2|48lb > 89000gp|130 Damage|480lb

ML 20 - up to 15targets/250lbs.+375lbs/WbL760,000gp Vs DR20

13 Colossal Masterwork Vicious Keen BluIce BastardSword [(35+500gp)x16 +300gp +8000gp= 16900gp|(6d8 +2d6 -20+1)=15 |17-20x2|48lb > 221000gp|195 Damage|624lb

Some question for you...
1- does the charater need exotic weapon proficecny and ranged-related feats (Precise Shot)?
2- does Telekinesis-like spells/powers overcome Inappropriately Sized Weapons penalities?
3- do Maximize & Empower metamagics aplly to Telekinesis-like spells/powers ?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 04:05:16 PM by 7h39 »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: [3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 02:17:44 PM »

I like how these Macro-Tiny arrows are like 500 ft long.  XD

 :D
You know, for the classic Core Monk 2 / Tarrasque build.
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 12:46:27 AM »
Embracing the "bag of holding inside out" method we can forsake Colossal++++ Arrows and strict by raw (Rules compendium: Size The nine size categories, in order from smallest to largest, are Fine, Diminutive, Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal) to the maxiumum Colossal size for the weapon.
(click to show/hide)

Some question for you...
1- does the charater need exotic weapon proficecny and ranged-related feats (Precise Shot)?
2- does Telekinesis-like spells/powers overcome Inappropriately Sized Weapons penalities?
3- do Maximize & Empower metamagics aplly to Telekinesis-like spells/powers ?
1. Technically it's open ended. One party could say it says attack rolls and not ranged attack rolls, another could say it's a no brainer since you're throwing weapons, a third can even butt in and say the Spell says you use X & Y and further emphasize no Z. Personally I recommend siding with that 3rd option, weapon's dealing standard damage is a pretty strong argument that Feats are not factored and works in tandem with...
2. The Spell never once addresses Proficiency but does state you apply certain things to the Attack Roll while chucking household items without any regard to such. Sticking to that is the closest you can possibly come to following the rules on it isn't it?
3. Yes/No. You can modify Telekinesis it's self like always, like Heighten Spell or Silent Spell, but weapon damage is not part of the Spell. See also Metamagics & Summon Monster.

Offline 7h39

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Re: [3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 07:11:11 AM »
Thx SorO for the rules clarification, i'll apply Occam's razor and cut all implication out. just raw attack roll and damage.

Btw i've noticed that from your post

Quote
A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.
Emphasis mine

This means that without getting into epic with force dragon, i have at least other 2 size increments to play with: assumed that possibile sizes in dnd are from fine to colossal a light weapon for a medium sized creature it's a tiny object -> a light weapon for a colossal creature it's a huge object. With a little bit of rule stretching (and weapon streatching in this case) i can make a colossal weapon for no intended welder (o for a Gold Dragon, Wyrm with Expansion2) for +6 size increase (x64): 1d6 -> 8d6

is it legit?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 10:01:56 AM by 7h39 »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: [3.5] Optimizing Telekinetic Thrust
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 10:51:04 AM »
Yes you can have a Fine weapon that is technically two Sizes below Fine by your emphasis so it breaks the 9 on the get go, the DMG however says it has to deal at least 1 damage so you're limited to resizing the heavier hitters. But overall it's 95% legit.

The loss of rules occurs when you have to exploit data from existing tables to make up additional advancements. That part their is no getting around. But even Tablewise you can do +3 with a Dagger by following the 2d6 pattern and you know 8dX becomes 12dX in the next step from the d8 pattern present in the RC. After that, everyone has just kind of stuck to bi-doubling rather than risking a debate on how the next scalier should work (sic dice changes->+1 die->bi-double->what's next?) for the last twelve years or so.