Polymorph: Don't gain qualities vs. gain (sub)type

[StreamOfTheSky]

The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form...

...It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Simple question, really.  Even though I likely won't go strict RAW on this, I would like to know what the RAW answer is.

I have always considered Polymorph spell to not grant *any* qualities of the assumed form, but it does mention that you take on the type and subtype, which inherently are PACKED with special qualities.  So...which statement wins out in the end?  Do you get Ex special qualities of the type(s) you assume, or just any Ex special attacks from it?

I'm also curious because I always hated that (in my view, before realizing this type/subtype thing) Polymorph Any Object, a much higher level spell where it's expected if you turn someone to a sheet of paper you can set the sheet on fire and it will burn up just like paper that...you also don't gain Ex qualities, since it defers to Polymorph's rules in that regard.  Doesn't make sense for PAO, but on the other hand gaining type qualities is overpowered for regular polymorph, IMO.

I will probably houserule it as such, if I even allow PAO at all, but please can someone tell me the RAW answer here?  And please don't start a debate about whether either spell is overpowered and so forth, there's enough threads on that already.

The reason I'm asking, if you're curious is below.  Slight spoilers for War of the Burning Sky campaign setting, MY PLAYERS STAY OUT, etc...

(click to show/hide)

To overcome the campaign's namesake effect and survive long-distance teleporting without burning to a crisp at the party's level (too low for Energy Immunity even if I hadn't banned it...which I did), the campaign says an NPC wizard can Polymorph some in the party into red dragons (fire subtype) to get fire immunity.  That...just didn't sound right to me.  And besides, the campaign offers plenty of other actual legit measures (protection from energy + energy resistance, for example) that it doesn't even seem necessary to broach the question.

[phaedrusxy]

You gain all the things that come with type and subtype, yes.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You gain all the things that come with type and subtype, yes.

ALL things?  Even Su and Spell-like?  That can't possibly be right....

[faeryn]

You gain all the things that come with type and subtype, yes.

ALL things?  Even Su and Spell-like?  That can't possibly be right....

I don't recall any type/subtype granting supernatural or spell-like abilities. Types only grant extraordinary qualities to my knowledge.

Basicly all this means is that you'll gain any resistances, immunities, vulnerabilities, and special vision qualities attached to the type. There's really not much else that you gain from types... aside from forced ability score changes from Undead. If you find a type that gives you supernatural and/or spell-like abilities then you'll probably gain those as well, but I can almost guarantee you that you won't find one. Supernatural and spell-like abilities are tied to the creatures themselves not their type.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't recall any type/subtype granting supernatural or spell-like abilities. Types only grant extraordinary qualities to my knowledge.

Supernatural and spell-like abilities are tied to the creatures themselves not their type.

Even just sticking to core, Angel and Archon subtypes get Su abilities baked in.  You can't polymorph into them (w/o Neraph or similar tricks), but your statements are not correct.

[faeryn]

I don't recall any type/subtype granting supernatural or spell-like abilities. Types only grant extraordinary qualities to my knowledge.

Supernatural and spell-like abilities are tied to the creatures themselves not their type.

Even just sticking to core, Angel and Archon subtypes get Su abilities baked in.  You can't polymorph into them (w/o Neraph or similar tricks), but your statements are not correct.

The majority of Types and Subtypes are not accompanied by spell-like or supernatural abilities at all. And looking at those two, they are really just resistances in the form of continuous Su/Sp abilities.

I said "to my knowledge" to point out that there may be some types/subtypes with abilities I haven't noticed as well. Looking through a few more the only other subtypes I'm finding with Su/Sp abilities are Demon and Devil. And both of them have a spell-like that's presence is reliant on the creature itself.

Quite honestly though, Polymorph is just flat-out broken. You're either taking a form that you expected to gain a certain ability as only to learn that ability isn't included with a polymorph and you've just cut off access to some or all of your pre-existing abilities for the duration. Or, your taking a form that has given you far more power than a player character should have and are now trivializing encounters that are meant to be a challenge.

You're more than justified to tell them no to using polymorph to bypass your plot mechanic.

Just know, that a creature with the fire subtype is still immune to fire damage and vulnerable to cold even when denied all of it's supernatural and spell-like abilities. Those resistances and vulnerabilities are not spell-like nor are they supernatural, infact I don't believe they are even labeled as extraordinary, they are simply qualities of the subtype.

[linklord231]

Is there a purpose to Subtype other than grouping creatures with similar special qualities together?

[zook1shoe]

Not necessarily 'similar special qualities', but more as in 'closely related'.

tanar'ri are one of the 3 subraces of demons, all of which formed in the same way (souls from the Material Plane). There are creatures very similar, such as jarilith that are demons, but not tanar'ri.

similarly, there are several humanoids that have the 'human' subtype, sharing similar physical features and origins, but not necessarily 'special qualities' (neanderthal vs. human)