Rating/tier system for Martial Disciplines?

[ImperatorK]

Is there something like that?
If not, lets hear your opinions on which Martial Disiplines are good and which are bad. You can include homebrewed disciplines, but I'm interested in the nine official ones the most.

[Fredgerd]

As in Tome of Battle?

Tiger Claw and White Raven always seemed to stand above the others to me. Never used that book much TBH though. I'm not aware of a tier list specific to it either.

[polycrac]

First thing you'd have to do is define your tiers - some disciplines are designed to be useful to anyone on a single dip (I'm thinking diamond mind), others have a more extensive manouver tree (stone dragon takes a lot of investment to get to the good stuff). Some are available to one class (desert wind, devoted spirit), others to all three (stone dragon). Take a look at the descriptors for the class tier system and see if you can make similar statements for the disciplines, then let folk argue them into place!

[snakeman830]

I'd say Stone Dragon is the worst, due to the restrictions of "must be on the ground" and the stance movement restrictions.  That said, the worst piece of a pile of awesome is still awesome, and Stone Dragon has some really beefy effects in it.

[zook1shoe]

Desert Wind is down near the bottom too, since it deals the most commonly resisted energy damage, fire.

[littha]

A lot of people are unhappy with Devoted Spirit because its big damage effects can't be used on a full attack and do less damage than an optimised full attack routine.

I like it for characters using Sword + Board. The damage manuvers make your 1 handed sword damage not so pitiful and both Shield Block and Shield Counter are pretty good as immediate actions on a melee character. Especially as you are likely to recover them pretty fast as a crusader.

[SorO_Lost]

It is kind of hard to rate them all, one one will really agree. But for me...

#9 Stone Dragon
Limited mobility, weakest in damage, flight or aquatic environments render chunks of it useless, the few good strikes in it can be dipped without investment (bonecrusher, tombstone strike) making it very unrewarding to be dedicated.

#8 Setting Sun
Purely focused on tripping which is based on an Opposed Strength Check where your larger and more legged opponents obtain additional bonuses. The trip Maneuvers also deal little to nothing useful in damage. It has some utility through but other, lower level, Maneuvers offer the same style of effects (eg hydra slaying strike).

#7 Tiger Claw
So low!? Yep, everything focused on damage. Damage, damage, damage, damage for jumping, damage for a critical, damage for being smaller, damage damage damage. It's only real support is enhanced mobility from Sudden Leap or obtaining Cover as you climb on someone to deal even more damage.

#6 Desert Wind
Suffers from being the second most easily resisted Energy type in the game but has some pretty versatile stuff. Area bombs, teleporting counters, retaliation effects, bonus damage, debuff & set up via Distracting Ember, Searing Charge lets you attack opponents with flight even if you don't have it, really it's a good Discipline. It just comes to being fire based.

#5 Diamond Mind
A good well rounder but plays a bit more defensive than Iron Heart. It's Concentration-to-Saves, +IL-to-Saves, and Reroll that Save aspects are often a must for most builds. It's just offensively limited, the Ability Damage isn't worth using, other Maneuvers grant additional movement sooner, it's most powerful strikes (nightmares) is just a reflavored Full-Attack and Insight doesn't even acknowledge your melee capabilities. It's good, as a "mundane" you need to increase your Saves, it's just not great.

#4 Iron Heart
Surge is well known, Endurance gives you in combat healing, you have decent damaging strikes and area hitters, you can also debuff using Dazing Strike and try some fancy weapon tactics by chucking your favorite across the room. Iron Heart is the defacto standard, well balanced and powerful.

#3 Shadow Hand
Concealment, teleportation, and incorporeality go a long way out of combat. Ability damage gives you alternative ways to kill or disable your opponents as well. It's not really all that good for damage, but single handedly adds in a stealth/scout role to your Adapt.

#2 Devoted Spirit
Party healing while killing your foes? No way, it's like WotC heard how ineffective healing in combat is. You have have strikes that impose penalties, self buffs, a bit of CC and can try to help the party with the shield strikes. Pretty solid and gives you a nearly unobtainable resource: more HP.

#1 White Raven
Of course you'd expect the party helper to be in first place. Your Maneuvers grant other people extra actions or limit the actions of your opponents. Like Hammer is a Saveless method to Stun opponents, Tactics makes a Wizard's entire round worth of actions equivalent of your Swift Action, Order Forged lets the entire party rearrange them selves (great for ambushes!) and War Master's Charge says everyone gets to be an ubercharger.

[snakeman830]

Setting Sun's trip checks can also instead be opposed Dexterity checks, Soro, which you get a +4 bonus on if you're smaller than your target.  If you choose Strength checks, you get +4 if you're larger than your target.

Also, Desert Wind being the second most resisted energy type?  Pretty sure Fire is number 1 on that list.

[ImperatorK]

What place would it be in if we'd consider the Desert Wind variants that change the energy type of the maneuvers?

[zook1shoe]

Tripping doesn't work on good/perfect flyers, that's pretty limiting. I'd say the 3 worst are...
worst Stone
second Desert
third Setting

[snakeman830]

Tripping doesn't work on good/perfect flyers, that's pretty limiting. I'd say the 3 worst are...
worst Stone
second Desert
third Setting

Tripping doesn't, but I think Setting Sun maneuvers still do.

Of course, any ranking is going to be a little skewed simply because we don't know who else is around.  For example, White Raven isn't very good at all if you're solo, whereas Setting Sun combos very nicely with many spells (so value goes up with friendly casters) and not very well with most melee allies (goes down).

[SorO_Lost]

Also, Desert Wind being the second most resisted energy type?  Pretty sure Fire is number 1 on that list.

The original count (62vs50) was based on the MM but excluded Templates. Liches, Vampires, Vampire Spawn, Skeletons, Celestials, Half-Celestials come to mind and Skeletons are generic Undead, you can expect a lot of them. Branching out, very few creatures have Fire Resistance in Sandstorm, but most of the creatures in Frostburn have the Cold Subtype favoring Fire damage. LM also likes Cold Resistance/Immunity while tossing out two creatures with Vulnerability to Fire (and only two with immunity). I haven't really gone detailed in this area but the tally already dislikes Cold.

My own focus is on which deals more. You have Searing Spell & Piercing Cold to bypass immunities, Blistering Spell & Flash Frost for +2/lvl, Cold Snap and Caustic Mire for +1/die, but you also have Fiery Spell, Pyro, and Mystic Rings of Fire for Fire only. Cold gets Lord of Uttercold, which isn't even extra damage let alone Cold based.The Cold Descriptor is awesome for Spell stacking, but for damage not so much.

So I favor Cold being the weakest.

[zook1shoe]

Tripping doesn't, but I think Setting Sun maneuvers still do.

they are trip attacks based mostly off of Mighty Throw and good/perfect flyers are immune to trips

[SorO_Lost]

I missed this one from before.

Setting Sun's trip checks can also instead be opposed Dexterity checks, Soro, which you get a +4 bonus on if you're smaller than your target.  If you choose Strength checks, you get +4 if you're larger than your target.

You got your wires crossed.

Your +4 if Smaller comes from the very specific Maneuver called Counter Charge. It's a Counter that risks granting an additional +2 to your opponent's attack roll in an attempt to make them run past you by 2 squares, but it does not grant bonuses and it's not a Trip and no such related bonus is applicable.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

Your opponent chooses his Ability Score and you suffer penalties for being Small. And yes, Mighty Throw doesn't override that last sentence, every failure allows free retaliation.

Also @Zook, DMG says you apply all forms of movement (hustle is an example) to flight. Per FAQ, Tripping a flying creature forces them to Stall and per Tactical Movement the only way to end that condition is a DC 20 Reflex Save (not simply having a different maneuverability). Tripping flying creatures is actually more effective than land bound foes.

[snakeman830]

I missed this one from before.

Setting Sun's trip checks can also instead be opposed Dexterity checks, Soro, which you get a +4 bonus on if you're smaller than your target.  If you choose Strength checks, you get +4 if you're larger than your target.

You got your wires crossed.

Your +4 if Smaller comes from the very specific Maneuver called Counter Charge. It's a Counter that risks granting an additional +2 to your opponent's attack roll in an attempt to make them run past you by 2 squares, but it does not grant bonuses and it's not a Trip and no such related bonus is applicable.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

Your opponent chooses his Ability Score and you suffer penalties for being Small. And yes, Mighty Throw doesn't override that last sentence, every failure allows free retaliation.

Mighty Throw does, actually.  It also gives you the choice of using Strength or Dexterity on your trip attack.

As part of this maneuver, you must
succeed on a melee touch attack against
your foe.  Resolve the throw as a trip
attempt, but you do not pro-
voke attacks of opportunity and your
opponent cannot try to trip you if you
lose the opposed check.  You can use
your Dexterity or Strength modifier,
whichever is higher.  You gain a +4
bonus on the ability check.

I was, however, wrong when I had the qualifying bonuses and the opponent's defense being the same ability score you used.  You get the +4 bonus regardless, and the opponent does get to choose Str or Dex to try and resist.

[SorO_Lost]

Doh, I thought Mighty Throw didn't.

Ballistics, Comet, and Devastating copy Mighty except for X, however Soaring has it's own text that immediately says your opponent cannot trip you back rather than buried half way into it.

[zook1shoe]

@soro... Check out the trip section in the RC... A flying creature is tripped to the ground when it cannot maintain its minimum forward speed..guess which 2 maneuverabilities have no min fly speed?

[SorO_Lost]

Being tripped makes you prone. Who can be tripped? Beholders? Gelatinous cubes? What effect does tripping have on these creatures? Can a prone character be tripped again? What about flying and swimming creatures? Many creatures have neither legs nor any relationship to the ground or gravity. How does tripping affect them?
Anything using limbs for locomotion can be tripped. Things that don’t need limbs for locomotion can’t be tripped. You can’t trip a snake, a beholder, or a gelatinous cube. You won’t find this in the rules, but then it really doesn’t need to be in there—the rules can leave some things to the DM’s common sense. A creature flying with wings can be “tripped,” in which case the creature stalls (see Tactical Aerial Movement on page 20 of the DMG). You can’t make an incorporeal creature fall down. You also can’t trip a prone creature. Creatures can’t be tripped when they’re swimming (the water holds them up). Likewise, a burrowing creature is driving its body through a fairly solid medium that serves to hold it up.

FAQ says yes, admits to no clear rules and also says DMs are supposed to use (un)common sense.

MOVING IN THREE DIMENSIONS
Not every creature gets around by walking and running. A shark, even though it moves by swimming, can take a run action to swim faster. A character under the influence of a fly spell can make a flying charge. A climbing thief can use part of his speed to climb down a short wall and then use the remainder to hustle toward a foe. Use the movement rules to apply to any sort of movement, not just when traveling across a flat surface.

Of course, Charging is actually a Special Attack listed in Combat along side Tripping. Prone, Standing Up, & Crawling are also from the Combat section.

Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

Tripping forces a creature to "Stall" so it skips the normal means to bring about the condition. I supposed it's like how you're suppose to die after losing HP or become Panicked after Shaken and there are just so many ways to skip what you might call the "normal" means to bring things about.

In any case, FAQ says yes. The rest is just details to support it.

[zook1shoe]

You haven't mentioned the text in Rules Compendium, did you by chance look at them like I suggested?

[SorO_Lost]

You haven't mentioned the text in Rules Compendium, did you by chance look at them like I suggested?

Yes but *confused*

Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it’s too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover; otherwise, it falls an additional 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. If not, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

I mean I'm up and down a lot, and half asleep here recently (call load) but I still don't see any changes in the text that says your maneuverability makes you immune to trip.

So I guess it's this?

Tripping a Flying Defender
A winged creature can be tripped, and if it is, it falls as if it didn’t maintain its minimum forward speed. See Fly, page 92.

Which doesn't make sense on my end at all. Everyone with locomotion can be Tripped and the exceptions to that were previously noted on the same page, so the creature is Tripped and it falls. And how does fall? Is it 500ft/rnd with a Move Action to "stand up" and if so how does that interact with gliding? Well, it says as if you didn't maintain movement (see text). It doesn't care about the value of your Speed, it's explaining how you fall. Because you are now falling and that's kind of all there is to it.

It's like if I were to explain that licking a flag pole in winter cools your tongue as if you were eating ice cream. Then you were to claim you're lactose intolerant and conclude the fact that you cannot lick steel poles.