Spells for a CStP Erudite.

[Captnq]

And the point that was made already about IoA and Energy Sub (fire) is that they are not compatible. The spell must have the fire descriptor before you cast the spell in order for it to be affected by IoA. Energy Sub (fire) does not apply until the moment you start to cast the spell, therefore a spell that doesn't natively have the fire descriptor won't ever be affected by IoA... anyway the discussion on that can be continued on your other thread, don't mean to derail this one.

No. It does not. Why?
Read what I already posted.

By RAI, sure. I agree. Not the intent of the Feat.
But RAW? I have demonstrated that Energy Substitution changes the energy of the spell BEFORE I cast it. If the spell is on my list and has the fire descriptor, I can cast it spontaneously. Changing the energy of a spell doesn't take it OFF my list, does it?

Look. If you want me to agree with you, show me that Metamagic feats apply AFTER I cast them spontaneously. Seriously. I would love to see it. I don't have a problem with being wrong, I just want you to prove it.

At worst it all occurs simultaneously, in which case it still works. The only way the feat won't work is if the energy description is changed AFTER I start to cast. And if that's the case, I REALLY want to know, because there are some really evil rules abuse I can think of.

[SorO_Lost]

I have demonstrated that Energy Substitution changes the energy of the spell BEFORE I cast it.

The first time you mentioned Energy Substitution in this thread was here:

BTW, I did consider using Initiate of Amauntor combined with Energy Sub (fire) to justify adding every Spell from any list that has an energy descriptor, but I think that violates the intent of the class.

Pick a side before needlessly arguing ok?

Look. If you want me to agree with you, show me that Metamagic feats apply AFTER I cast them spontaneously. Seriously. I would love to see it. I don't have a problem with being wrong, I just want you to prove it.

Why should Faeryn?
A) If you cannot provide a citation the Metamagic applies before then you have nothing supporting your opinion. That doesn't mean you auto-won, that means you auto-lost. Se the DMG on teaching the game to noobs.
B) I already told you where to look over a page ago.
C) Annnnndd Spontaneous spellcasters choose spells as they cast them, and they can choose whether to apply metamagic feats when they cast their spells. ~RC 139 It's not even an obscure reference, it practical screams it at you in the RC and the index even tells you the page it's on. That's just a measure of how little you care about reading the rules and if you're too damn lazy to at least glance at the section your talking about, why do you even think you have a right to debate anything?

[faeryn]

I already pointed it out in his other thread, and I wasn't the only one to point it out either.

Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot.

"when they cast" The rules are really quite blunt about it, it happens when you cast your spell, not before, not after, but when.

At worst it all occurs simultaneously, in which case it still works. The only way the feat won't work is if the energy description is changed AFTER I start to cast. And if that's the case, I REALLY want to know, because there are some really evil rules abuse I can think of.

Still wrong... in order for the spell to be cast spontaneously via IoA it has to have the fire descriptor prior to casting the spell. Gaining the descriptor simultaneously with the casting does not grant you the ability to cast it spontaneously. In what universe is simultaneous synonymous to before?

Example:
You have an Ice spell and can only spontaneously cast fire spells... you didn't prepare your ice spell as one of your prepared spells for the day so you can't cast it... You have Energy Substitution [Fire], but since you didn't prepare the spell and it's not fire already, you can't apply the metamagic to the spell.

Even if you had prepared the spell that day and even if you did so with Energy Sub[fire] applied to it you would still be limited to casting that spell however many times you prepared it since Energy Sub does not change the actual spell. You have 1 casting of a fire version of your ice spell, you didn't change the spell itself into a fire spell.

Sure you could theoretically cast that one prepared casting spontaneously... but what would be the point in that? you would either be logical and use the spell normally, or be illogical and sacrifice another prepared spell to wastefully cast your prepared ice[fire] spell spontaneously effectively burning 2 prepared spells in on one spell.


Infact what your trying to do is an example of a catch22... The only way you can cast your ice spell spontaneously with IoA is to spontaneously turn it into a fire spell, but the only way to turn it into a fire spell spontaneously requires you to already be able to cast it spontaneously, thus removing the need to modify it to begin with. So basically a catch22, the requirements to fulfil your desired intent negate it and prevent it from happening.