Do Erudites have spell lists? (Update)

[Captnq]

So...

Initiate of Amaunator
You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Amaunator's faith.
Prerequisite: Heretic of the Faith (PF) (Risen Sun or Three-Faced Sun), (or) , Servant of the Fallen (LE) , Cleric or Paladin 4th,
Benefit: You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor. This functions the same way as spontaneous cure spells do.

So, I'm an erudite. I take one level of cleric and this feat. I can now cast any spell on my spell list that has the fire descriptor as a spontaneous spell.

Nothing says this only affects my cleric spell list. So the trick is to take the rest of your levels as a wizard and now you can spontaneous cast all spells with the fire descriptor.

However, I take erudite instead.

Now, Erudite has a spell list of every arcane spell list. It's about 2970 spells. So how would a CStP Erudite spontaneously cast spells? Could they dump anything to spontaneously cast (Manifest) any fire spell?

I suppose they would still be limited by Unique powers per day, it just gives them a much better selection without having to hunt it down.

Thoughts?

[Jackinthegreen]

StP Erudite doesn't get the ability to just spontaneously cast spells.  The spells must be explicitly known to them and they have to go through a certain process to obtain that.  Likewise, there isn't an "erudite" spell list so it wouldn't work even if they have the capability of learning any arcane spell as a power.  It's a similar thing to how all arcane spells can be converted to divine, or how an archivist can learn any divine spell.  Sure that can be done, but it doesn't change the original spell in the rule books which is what this feat and StP erudite would care about.

[Captnq]

The erudite uses her manifester level for determining the effects of the spell being manifested

.

0-level spells cost no power points to manifest.

Even if the spell is converted to a power, it is still a spell. So it's a spell and a power. Deal god, why is this making my head hurt? I actually want to throw up.

However:

Because the spells are now effectively psionic powers.

I hate that word. "effectively". Do you know what it means in a contract? "It performs as X, but still is Y."

All Converted spells to powers are spells AND powers. Thank Gygax they included:

they are no longer affected by metamagic feats

Or you could use both on them.


So an Erudite Manifests spells. Since a spell list is personal and unique to each and every character (ie Wizards might share the same list, but technically, it can change "see sand shaper")

But he can't CAST spells, he manifests them. I want to shoot myself in the head. I pray to a god I do not believe in for the sweet release of death that will not come because I am in Hell.

Do you have to be able to cast a spell to have it on a spell list? Can you have a spell list and not have the ability to cast? Wait, a wizard has access to 9th level spell list at 1st level. So he has spells he cannot cast but they are on his spell list.

Holy fuck, That can't be right.

While you can convert spells to Divine or Arcane, in order for a spell to be Arcane or Divine from a magic item PoV, it has to be on an Arcane or Divine Spell LIST.

Okay, wait. Start over.

You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it.
The spell is a spell but is treated as a power.
You can't cast the spell, you manifest it.
Do Erudites have spell lists?

If an erudite has a Wand of magic missiles, can he use it, or does he need to UMD?

An erudite can learn discipline powers only by directly learning a power from another’s repertoire, learning it from a power stone, or taking the Expanded Knowledge feat. In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.

So, no 9th level spells until epic.
Using psion-magic transparency, we assume that you can learn from a Arcane spell caster, or a Scroll (the magic version of a Power stone) or the expanded knowledge feat to get it automatically.


Powers gained at new level

The two free powers must be of levels the erudite can manifest, and they cannot be from a select discipline list.

So you cannot take a spell converted to power as your two per level.


So hard to think. I'm rambling. Now I got to go to work for 16 hours.

Do Erudites have spell list?

[faeryn]

No... Erudites do not have spell lists. They have a Power List that is shared with the Psion/Wilder as a class... and a personal Power List that is comprised of all the powers they have learned. StP Erudites add spells to their list of Powers Known. While the spell may still technically be a spell, it is treated as a Psionic Power for all effects. This is mostly to allow spellcasters to counter or dispel your StP manifests as normal while simultaneously allowing a psionic character to do the same as if they were psionic powers. Normally, without Magic/Psionic transparency you'd have to counter spells with spells and psionics with psionics, or use a select few spells and psionics that are designed specifically to counter the other. If you're using transparency rules then you may as well just say that any spell learned by an StP erudite is a psionic power, because it being a spell doesn't really mean anything anymore once you apply transparency rules.

Additionally, the wording of the feat in question makes what your attempting to do not possible, even as a cleric/wizard.

Benefit: You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor. This functions the same way as spontaneous cure spells do.

Your spell list... this means your personal list of spells known... not "all spells on the class spell list", but your individual personal spell list. So a cleric/wizard could cast any and all cleric spells with the fire description spontaneously since a cleric adds all cleric spells to their spell list, and any other spell with the fire descriptor that has been added to your wizard spellbook. Any wizard spell with the fire descriptor that is not in your spellbook, however, cannot be spontaneously cast with that feat.

Now, if an erudite could benefit from this feat, which it cannot, it would only affect spells with the fire descriptor that the erudite has by virtue of being a cleric (the feat requires 4th level cleric or paladin, so you'll have 1st & 2nd level spells if you only take the required levels) and any fire descriptor spell you converted into a power as an StP erudite.

Now... I suppose you could in theory spontaneously cast your 1st & 2nd level fire spells you converted into powers as divine spells through your cleric levels, but any spell that is that exceeds your cleric levels ability to cast must be manifested as normal.

[linklord231]

Additionally, the wording of the feat in question makes what your attempting to do not possible, even as a cleric/wizard.

Benefit: You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor. This functions the same way as spontaneous cure spells do.

Your spell list... this means your personal list of spells known... not "all spells on the class spell list", but your individual personal spell list. So a cleric/wizard could cast any and all cleric spells with the fire description spontaneously since a cleric adds all cleric spells to their spell list, and any other spell with the fire descriptor that has been added to your wizard spellbook. Any wizard spell with the fire descriptor that is not in your spellbook, however, cannot be spontaneously cast with that feat.

Glossing over the rest of your post because I don't want to comment on it, but the above, at least, is wrong.  Interpreting it this way leads to the absurdity that a Wizard who has not banned Evocation but also does not have Fireball in his spellbook could not use a Wand of Fireball without a UMD check.  "Your spell list" can only mean "your class's general spell list plus any additions or subtractions specific to you." 

[SorO_Lost]

Link is right, there is difference between your Spell List and Spells Known.

In the case of the Erudite he adds Spells as Powers to his Powers Known which makes him unable to benefit from the Feat no matter what you consider his Manifested "Spells".

[Captnq]

No... Erudites do not have spell lists. They have a Power List that is shared with the Psion/Wilder as a

Benefit: You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor. This functions the same way as spontaneous cure spells do.

Your spell list... this means your personal list of spells known... not "all spells on the class spell list", but your individual personal spell list. So a cleric/wizard could cast any and all cleric spells with the fire description spontaneously since a cleric adds all cleric spells to their spell list, and any other spell with the fire descriptor that has been added to your wizard spellbook. Any wizard spell with the fire descriptor that is not in your spellbook, however, cannot be spontaneously cast with that feat.

Oh no no no no no....

You are assuming interchange between lists. No.

You take one level of Cleric, Assume Cloister cleric because you get the most bang for your buck as a level 1 dip. (May I recomend picking up the Fire Devotion Feat?)You use it to take the Initiate of Am' feat. Then you never take another level of cleric and only take wizard. Yes, you are now one level behind of wizard progression, but you have access to every fire spell on your spell list, in the same way a spontaneous divination wizard has access to every divination spell. NOTHING in the IoA feat states that it only applies to clerical spells. It says SPELL LIST. I simply choose to apply it to my arcane spell list, not the divine one.

THEN you pick up "Energy Substitution (Fire)"

Since the fire spells are cast via spontaneous rules, therefore Metamagic is applied under the same rules as a sorcerer. Therefore, I can cast ANY spell with an energy descriptor by spontaneously substituting Fire. Sure, it takes a full round to cast, but I can take my time when casting Leomund's Tiny Igloo (fire version)

Here. Meet Incinerator Pyrus Phlogiston in his minimum level configuration. This is the point where he really starts to shine. In two more levels, Spontaneous divination and then LOOK OUT!

I should point out he's a response to "What rules can I use?" with the reply "anything RAW". So, yeah. It's a heavily on the TO side of things.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Small nitpick. The spell has to have the fire descriptor. But it doesn't. It's just cast as if it had it.

Its the reason I don't find those miracle'd metamagic builds to work. But ... now that I check the wording in CArc, it does seem awful close. Upon multiple readings, unless there is a metamagic quote somewhere in the SRD I'm forgetting, Energy Substitution doesn't even seem to indicate that the benefit of the feat is applied upon casting. It seems oddly permanent. It's like the spell itself (that you know) gets changed forever until you change it back. Sorcerers everywhere rejoice. You can set your default fireball to acid without raising future casting times after the first time you change it!

[linklord231]

Small nitpick. The spell has to have the fire descriptor. But it doesn't. It's just cast as if it had it.

Its the reason I don't find those miracle'd metamagic builds to work. But ... now that I check the wording in CArc, it does seem awful close. Upon multiple readings, unless there is a metamagic quote somewhere in the SRD I'm forgetting, Energy Substitution doesn't even seem to indicate that the benefit of the feat is applied upon casting. It seems oddly permanent. It's like the spell itself (that you know) gets changed forever until you change it back. Sorcerers everywhere rejoice. You can set your default fireball to acid without raising future casting times after the first time you change it!

How do you figure?

ENERGY SUBSTITUTION
[METAMAGIC]
You can modify an energy-based spell to use another type
of energy instead.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, any metamagic
feat.
Benefit: Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level. The spell’s descriptor changes to the new energy type—for example, a fireball composed of cold energy
is an evocation [cold] spell.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, choosing a different type of energy each time.

It quite explicitly does have the appropriate energy descriptor.  And compare that to, say, Enlarge Spell. 

Benefit
You can alter a spell with a range of close, medium, or long to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell with a range of close now has a range of 50 ft. + 5 ft./level, while medium-range spells have a range of 200 ft. + 20 ft./level and long-range spells have a range of 800 ft. + 80 ft./level. An enlarged spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as spells whose ranges are not close, medium, or long, do not have increased ranges.

It uses the same "You can alter a spell" language as Energy Substitution.  I don't know how you could read Energy Substitution to permanently modify the spell without reading Enlarge Spell to do the same. 

Besides, that's not how Metamagic feats work anyway. 

Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot.

It's always a choice at the appropriate time (depending on your casting mechanics), never a toggle switch. 

[Captnq]

ENERGY SUBSTITUTION
[METAMAGIC]
You can modify an energy-based spell to use another type
of energy instead.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks, any metamagic
feat.
Benefit: Choose one type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, or fire). You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead. An energy substituted spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level. The spell’s descriptor changes to the new energy type—for example, a fireball composed of cold energy
is an evocation [cold] spell.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, choosing a different type of energy each time.

It quite explicitly does have the appropriate energy descriptor.  And compare that to, say, Enlarge Spell. 

What he means is that they don't clarify if its a spell being cast, a spell memorized, or a spell in a book. "You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead." Well, guess what, my spell in my spellbook is ANY SPELL. my spell in my head is ANY SPELL. What's the RAI? Clearly it's only cast spells. But how the feat reads is, the spell's default is changed until I choose to change it again.

So, by RAW, I can modify the spell with the feat before I cast it, or as I'm casting it, which makes it a spell that can be spontaneously cast by an IoA Cleric/Wizard. RAI, never fly. RAW, yes. However, once you modify the spell, it forever is subject to the 1 round casting time. Can't get around that.

Besides. I just like casting Spontaneous fire igloos.

[SorO_Lost]

I simply choose to apply it to my arcane spell list, not the divine one.

Precedence implies a Feat must be applied to a Class that meets it's Requirements rather than "simply anything I make up." See also FAQ on Extra Spell.

Metamagic Feats also do not create new Spells. See FAQ, RC, and virtually all Counterspell-related content published online. "any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor." is indicative that it works on [Fire] Spells on your list, not [Fire] Spells you can cast after applying Metamagic. So RAW is a no.

[faeryn]

So, by RAW, I can modify the spell with the feat before I cast it, or as I'm casting it, which makes it a spell that can be spontaneously cast by an IoA Cleric/Wizard. RAI, never fly. RAW, yes. However, once you modify the spell, it forever is subject to the 1 round casting time. Can't get around that.

Except that by RAW you can't cast the spell spontaneously unless it already has the Fire descriptor. In order for you to modify the spell with metamagic as a spontaneous spellcaster you must already have the ability to cast the spell spontaneously which would mean you would have no need to modify it. Because you have to modify the spell for it to qualify for spontaneous spellcasting, you cannot cast it spontaneously. You must either prepare the spell with or without the metamagic feat and cast it as a prepared spell or find some other way to cast it spontaneously.

[Captnq]

So, by RAW, I can modify the spell with the feat before I cast it, or as I'm casting it, which makes it a spell that can be spontaneously cast by an IoA Cleric/Wizard. RAI, never fly. RAW, yes. However, once you modify the spell, it forever is subject to the 1 round casting time. Can't get around that.

Except that by RAW you can't cast the spell spontaneously unless it already has the Fire descriptor. In order for you to modify the spell with metamagic as a spontaneous spellcaster you must already have the ability to cast the spell spontaneously which would mean you would have no need to modify it. Because you have to modify the spell for it to qualify for spontaneous spellcasting, you cannot cast it spontaneously. You must either prepare the spell with or without the metamagic feat and cast it as a prepared spell or find some other way to cast it spontaneously.

You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor. This functions the same way as spontaneous cure spells do.

You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead.

I don't see where it says, you cannot modify only X spells.
I see where is says I can modify ANY spell.

Please point out where is says I can only modify a spell AFTER I cast it. Because otherwise all spontaneous spells are modified BEFORE I cast it. And therefore, by RAW, any energy spell can be made a fire descriptor spell.

(and if you can show me how things are modified AFTER I cast them, do I have a loop hole in mind for some wacky stuff.)

True, you have a very sensible RAI view of things. I'm talking about how it reads.

Of course, you might say that it happens AS I'm casting it, but if it's as I'm casting it, then it's modified and not modified until I finish casting it. In which case. Leomund's Tiny Igloo can be cast as a spontaneous fire spell because it's a cold descriptor and fire descriptor as I'm casting it. Which would be broken as hell, as shown by my abuse of the Three Thunders Metamagic feat.

Here's the question: I start to cast a spell spontaneously. Do I have to choose my metamagic feats BEFORE I cast, or after I cast? Can I start to cast a spontaneous spell and choose to change my metamagic feats I'm applying AFTER I started (Lets say I'm casting something with a casting time of 10 minutes to make it obvious).

During my Ten-Minute casting time, can I change my mind and tack on City Spell? Or Invisible Spell? Or If I was paying for a +2 level adjustment, can I change it from empower to extend and enlarge?

If the answer is NO, then the metamagic is applied BEFORE I start casting, and therefore is something I can modify with Energy Sub.

[Captnq]

Lets simplify it a bit more.

I have a feat that says, "ALL MY SPELLS ON MY SPELL LIST HAVE THE FIRE DESCRIPTOR"

I'm Pun-Pun. I do that. It's now a thing.

So, can I cast all spells on my list spontaneously?

If the answer is yes, then we we have established that you can change/add the fire descriptor to a spell on a list.

ES fire changes energy descriptors to ANY spell. Not just spells you want to allow it to change, ANY SPELL.

So, when does it get applied?

Spontaneous Spell Casting
Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot.

It gets applied BEFORE I cast the spell. It's on the spot. Before I even begin casting. Before I do anything. ON THE SPOT, it's modified, THEN I attempt to cast the spell. And if I screw up, I lose the higher level slot I needed to cast it, not the lower, unmodified spot.

I haven't even begun to cast when I modify the spell, therefore, I haven't cast it yet.

You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor

I have the ABILITY to cast any spell that has the fire descriptor. I may, or may not succeed. I have not cast the spell, have not even begun to cast the spell, when I apply metamagic to it. First metamagic, THEN the casting attempt occurs, Ergo, the fire descriptor is modified, by RAW, before it is cast.

[faeryn]

So, by RAW, I can modify the spell with the feat before I cast it, or as I'm casting it, which makes it a spell that can be spontaneously cast by an IoA Cleric/Wizard. RAI, never fly. RAW, yes. However, once you modify the spell, it forever is subject to the 1 round casting time. Can't get around that.

Except that by RAW you can't cast the spell spontaneously unless it already has the Fire descriptor. In order for you to modify the spell with metamagic as a spontaneous spellcaster you must already have the ability to cast the spell spontaneously which would mean you would have no need to modify it. Because you have to modify the spell for it to qualify for spontaneous spellcasting, you cannot cast it spontaneously. You must either prepare the spell with or without the metamagic feat and cast it as a prepared spell or find some other way to cast it spontaneously.

You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor. This functions the same way as spontaneous cure spells do.

You can then modify any spell with an energy descriptor to use the chosen type of energy instead.

I don't see where it says, you cannot modify only X spells.
I see where is says I can modify ANY spell.

Please point out where is says I can only modify a spell AFTER I cast it. Because otherwise all spontaneous spells are modified BEFORE I cast it. And therefore, by RAW, any energy spell can be made a fire descriptor spell.

No need for me to point this out, someone else already did so a few posts up.

Besides, that's not how Metamagic feats work anyway. 

Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).

Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot.

It's always a choice at the appropriate time (depending on your casting mechanics), never a toggle switch. 

As Linklord231 already pointed out, the rules make it clear that spontaneous spellcasters apply their metamagics at the time of casting. Not before, not after, but DURING.

Since you can't spontaneously cast the spell without modifying it first, then you can't cast the spell spontaneously through that feat. It must have the Fire Descriptor before you can cast it. Your attempting to add the fire descriptor at the time of casting.

(and if you can show me how things are modified AFTER I cast them, do I have a loop hole in mind for some wacky stuff.)

True, you have a very sensible RAI view of things. I'm talking about how it reads.

Of course, you might say that it happens AS I'm casting it, but if it's as I'm casting it, then it's modified and not modified until I finish casting it. In which case. Leomund's Tiny Igloo can be cast as a spontaneous fire spell because it's a cold descriptor and fire descriptor as I'm casting it. Which would be broken as hell, as shown by my abuse of the Three Thunders Metamagic feat.

Not true, the spell has the cold descriptor up until you apply metamagic, which is at the start of casting. This won't give it both descriptors while casting though, the cold descriptor is immediately dropped off and the fire descriptor is added. But since the fire descriptor is not added until the casting starts, the spell is not a valid subject for the IoA feat.

Here's the question: I start to cast a spell spontaneously. Do I have to choose my metamagic feats BEFORE I cast, or after I cast? Can I start to cast a spontaneous spell and choose to change my metamagic feats I'm applying AFTER I started (Lets say I'm casting something with a casting time of 10 minutes to make it obvious).

During my Ten-Minute casting time, can I change my mind and tack on City Spell? Or Invisible Spell? Or If I was paying for a +2 level adjustment, can I change it from empower to extend and enlarge?

If the answer is NO, then the metamagic is applied BEFORE I start casting, and therefore is something I can modify with Energy Sub.

You choose prior to casting, but the metamagic is still applied at the start of casting. Which means that, No, you cannot choose to apply a metamagic after you started casting a spell, nor can you change metamagics mid-casting, nor is your metamagic applied "before" you start casting, it is applied as soon as you start casting.


Allow me to propose a question to you in return: Can you modify a spell that has not yet been cast or prepared?

[faeryn]

Lets simplify it a bit more.

I have a feat that says, "ALL MY SPELLS ON MY SPELL LIST HAVE THE FIRE DESCRIPTOR"

I'm Pun-Pun. I do that. It's now a thing.

So, can I cast all spells on my list spontaneously?

If the answer is yes, then we we have established that you can change/add the fire descriptor to a spell on a list.

ES fire changes energy descriptors to ANY spell. Not just spells you want to allow it to change, ANY SPELL.

So, when does it get applied?

Spontaneous Spell Casting
Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot.

It gets applied BEFORE I cast the spell. It's on the spot. Before I even begin casting. Before I do anything. ON THE SPOT, it's modified, THEN I attempt to cast the spell. And if I screw up, I lose the higher level slot I needed to cast it, not the lower, unmodified spot.

I haven't even begun to cast when I modify the spell, therefore, I haven't cast it yet.

You can spontaneously cast any spell on your spell list that has the fire descriptor

I have the ABILITY to cast any spell that has the fire descriptor. I may, or may not succeed. I have not cast the spell, have not even begun to cast the spell, when I apply metamagic to it. First metamagic, THEN the casting attempt occurs, Ergo, the fire descriptor is modified, by RAW, before it is cast.

The fire descriptor is modified, by RAW & RAI, at the time of casting, not before. ON THE SPOT. You choose to apply metamagic before you cast the spell, as such choosing to use a higher level spell, but the metamagic is applied as a part of the casting, which is why spontaneous casters must spend more time to cast with metamagic. Applying the metamagic is a part of the casting process, it applies at the start of the casting and is completed when the  spell is cast.

[nijineko]

stp erudites have "spellpowers", which are categorized as powers, not spells. though i started glazing over part way through the chain of explanations, so perhaps not relevant.

[linklord231]

For spontaneous spellcasters (or spells cast spontaneously), metamagic is applied the exact instant you choose to cast a spell.  Before you choose to cast it, the spell is not modified by the feat.  During the casting time, it has already been modified. 

In game terms, you're taking the "Cast a Spell" action.  The first part of that action is "Choose which spell to cast" (Rules Compendium 132).  That's the point you apply metamagic as a spontaneous caster, or choose a spell prepared with metamagic as a prepared caster. 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Oh I get it. The prepared/spontaneous thing you cast is a spell. And the thing that you know of your available options before you decided what you are going to cast is also a spell. Just another other those basic things that would be much clearer if a thesaurus were used. /sarcasm

Okay, okay I'll stop my willful misreading