Can someone explain the math behind fighter damage, sneak attack and fireball?

[stenver]

When comparing the damages of
Sword and board fighter
Sneak attacking rogue
Fireball
Then it seems that fireball always comes out as the biggest damage output with potential to damage multiple enemies and doesnt need good positioning from the caster.
Can someone explain why sneak attacking or fighter would be better choices?

[ketaro]

Dungeons and enclosed corridors and small rooms. SR. Metaknowledge of enemies that usually have really high reflex saves and Evasion. Or actual knowledge roll was pretty good and got you an idea of that.

Eh, its moot when you start metamagicking.

[SorO_Lost]

Can someone explain why sneak attacking or fighter would be better choices?

* Fireball is single hit multi-enemy for up to 10d6 (35 avg), total damage dealt increases with more opponents.
* Sneak Attack is circumstantial, on average at level 10 it's 1[W]+Str+5d6 & 2 attacks.
* Fighter has a more reliable 1[W]+Str+4 & 2 attacks assuming his unique Feats.

Now in the world of Min/Max, the stupid Fighter is a charger so he has some of the biggest per-hit numbers but he has one and only one role, punching people in the face with one enormous one attack. The Rogue gets to do a lot of out-of-combat stuff like Search/Disable/Scouting while everyone else raids the fridge, but he tried breaking his Sneak Attack and probably always hits with it so he probably spams a couple attacks and if they all hit it probably comes close to the Fighter. The Spellcaster I supposed decided Evocation was useful but banlisted fireball for being too craptastic, he cold-casted Wreath of Flames and hits for more than Fireball every turn without an Action, and then he Casts Evad's Intruding Tentacles so the Fighter and Rogue can hit too.

So it's more of what role do you want and how do you want to deal damage really.

[Tonymitsu]

1. Fireball is an area of effect attack that you have no control over, which can hit your allies as easily as it hits your enemies. Sneak attack and Sword and Board carry no such risks.

2. As a corollary, if the area you are in is smaller than the blast radius of the fireball, you are also included as a target. Doing the enemies work for them is never a good idea.

3. Fireball is subject to spell resistance, which are often far more difficult rolls to make than attack rolls.


It's also important to remember that even though most handbooks and guides will call such blasting spells bad choices what they really mean to say is they are "inferior" choices. There really is no such thing as a "bad" spell when you are comparing it to a mundane beatstick. Magic is always better than mundane. But when comparing one spell to another there are very clear distinctions between effective and ineffective ones.

Think of it this way:
After initiative rolls, the melee characters wait for the spellcaster to use a Fireball on a group of enemies in a room. Then they run in and mop up the survivors. The Fighter has Great Cleave and is very likely to kill all remaining enemies on his turn, and the rogue can then seek out the tougher baddies that might live through a cleave. Of course the enemies might get to move out of ideal cleave position by then, or some of them might have taken no damage from evasion, or worst of all they might cast some spells of their own. And all of this requires very specific things to happen in the right order to succeed.

Or...

The wizard can open up the encounter by casting Web on that same room of enemies. This spell offers a meaningless save and is not subject to spell resistance. Or he can cast a Scuplted Glitterdust, possibly blinding everything it hits. Now the party can spend the rest of the encounter plinking away at their helpless opponents using ranged weapons with absolutely zero risk to themselves.


Which of those sounds like a better idea to you?

[snakeman830]

Fireball versus sneak attack is simple:

At level 10, Fireball does 10d6 damage.  Sneak attack deals 5d6 per-hit.  The Rogue gets 2 attacks in a full attack by default at this point, so call it 10d6 plus double weapon damage (potentially more if he crits).

At level 20, Fireball does 10d6 damage.  Sneak attack deals 10d6 per-hit.  The Rogue gets 3 attacks in a full attack by default at this point, so call it 30d6 plus triple weapon damage (potentially more if he crits).

Both of these assume only the base values and a single opponent which is vulnerable to both forms of attack.

[Captnq]

When comparing the damages of
Sword and board fighter
Sneak attacking rogue
Fireball
Then it seems that fireball always comes out as the biggest damage output with potential to damage multiple enemies and doesnt need good positioning from the caster.
Can someone explain why sneak attacking or fighter would be better choices?

Nope. Because they're not.

Yeah, in very specific situations it's better. But then you switch spells to something better for the situation. The problem is about the time the wizard can power through 4 encounters without taking a nap is about the time he leaves non-spellcasters in the dust. A Fighter has one spell "Draw Blood". It has a focus "sword" and requires gestures "hacking someone to bits". It isn't a touch attack, so AC usually is tough to overcome. On the other hand, a wizard with a reserve feat can spam damage spells that are ranged touch attacks that are on par with a poorly made fighter.

Then you start getting into Min/Maxing.

It's hard to compare these things. Normally a Monk sucks. However, if I brought to you a monk with +53 fists. As is, +5 to hit, +5 damage and +43 levels of weapon special abilities on one fist what was greater mighty whalloped and various feats to increase damage until it did 12d12 points of damage, base. THEN YOU-

But see, that's silly. What DM would allow you to make it? Then again, what DM would allow a Wizard access to Delicate Disk? OR an Erudite Access to Body Outside Body/Fission/10th level Shadow Mind/Metaconcert (Army of ME)

Step back. The answer to your OP is pointless.

What's your goal? Fun? To Win? To make your DM cry? To understand how the rules work? To make a really cool combo?

These are the questions I need to know the answers to. Then I can direct you where you need to go.

if you don't think your question is pointless. Allow me to explain:

Here is WHAT CAN YOU DO WITH...
Here is FIREBALL

Look at the most in depth look into fireball you are likely to find on the internet. Does it help you? It's all there. All the math. That's just ONE SPELL. ONE. SPELL. I'm not taking into consideration the bazillion different weapons that a fighter might use. And that's not a handbook on how to make the fighter, BTW. That's the handbook on THE WEAPONS.

Now a wizard... he's got so many more options. For example:

(click to show/hide)

How to murder your players:
1. Get a hoard of Gerbils. (any diminuative critter will do. It must have an int of 1)
2. Outfit each diminuative gerbil with a diminuative suit of leather.
3. Train each gerbil in Armor use trick. Attack Trick. Fly Trick.
4. Get the reach metamagic feat and Extend metamagic feat.
5. Learn the spell Bristle, a second level wizard spell, Fly, a third level wizard spell, and Invisibility Sphere, a 3rd level wizard spell.
6. Buy two Rods of chaining.
7. Memorize Ranged Bristle 3 times. (3 4th level slots), and memorize ranged Fly three times.
8. Make sure you have at least 1 minute before the PCs arrive.
9. Have your 14th level wizard cast ranged bristle with the chain metamagic rod three times. That's 45 Gerbils with Bristle for the next 13 minutes, give or take.
10. Have your 14th level wizard cast ranged fly with the second chain metamagic rod three times. Now your gerbils can fly at 60 feet a round.
11. Cast Invisibility sphere on the leader gerbil.
12. Keep the flying gerbils in a giant cage with a huge door you can throw open when you need to.

13. When the PCs arrive threaten to open the cage if they don't surrender at once. When the PCs laugh, throw open the cage and cry, ATTACK MY MINIONS!

14. As the players snicker, a cloud of Leather Clad, spike covered gerbils attack the nearest target within 60 feet and appear as the invisibility spell ends. Each gerbil does nothing, but just the act of TRYING to attack triggers the Bristle spell, which results in a free attack at 2d6 damage. Uptyped SPELL damage, I might add. (add fell drain if you are so inclined to turn the PCs into wights in short order.) The spikes have an attack bonus equal to your CASTER LEVEL (which is 14.) Plus, being diminuative critters fighting Medium Sized critters, they get +4 to hit (or if you can fine a Fine sized critter that you can put leather armor on, you can increase this to hit bonus to +8)

15. Witness the PC's horror as they realize that the gerbils, being diminuative size can each bunch up flying into your square, 16 at a time. (Make it 3 groups of 15 to be easy on the DM) Hope you got a whole bunch of AoOs. Once in your square, you will get hit with 15 +18 to hit, 2d6 attacks. Assuming the PCs have an AC of 29, Each Gerbil will still hit 50% of the time. That's 7 successful hits. At 7 points of damage, that's 49 points of untyped damage a round to three PCs.

Of course, one fireball or what have you will dramatically change the outcome, but one round of flying, leather clad, spiked Gerbils turning your PCs into pin cushions should be enough to establish this as a night they will NEVER forget.

16. ???

17. Profit.

How do you even compare that to a rogue?


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