Saint template on an animal companion...what happens?

[Soft Insanity]

I'm face palming here.  There's a player who insists that she can add the saint template to her already vow of poverty fleshraker (which is loaded with templates).  My advice was to not do this as it's pretty clear you lose the companion as its type changes to outsider.

The player insists there's no clear part in the rules that says an outsider can't be an animal companion.  So who's right? (i'm not the gm, but i'm against this level of cheese)

[Amechra]

How is their Fleshraker getting the Saint template? There is no Saint Fleshraker on the list of Animal Companions, after all.

Actually, it shouldn't have any templates unless she has feats/class features that slap templates onto it.

[Soft Insanity]

Actually, it shouldn't have any templates unless she has feats/class features that slap templates onto it.

I need a place in the rules to point this out.  She obviously has exalted animal companion so it's a magical beast.

[Jackinthegreen]

Templates for the animal companion are already on iffy territory because of the text "[The] companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below."  A template means it would not be typical.

Also: ANIMAL companion.  There are only a very few other creatures with different types that can be taken as an animal companion.  The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the elven hound in Races of the Wild, and that requires the elf ranger substitution level.

Well, there's also the Companion Familiar ability that Arcane Heirophants get, but that does not allow for the creature to take a template either.

Then there's the issues with Vow of Poverty...  My first instinct is to say the DM is bonkers to allow it.  So many things from Book of Exalted Deeds are broken that the book is best banned unless the DM has a good hold on the concepts inherent to it, and it sounds like your DM does not if templated animal companions are allowed.

If the player insists on the creature keeping all that stuff, it would probably be best to make it a cohort instead.

[Amechra]

My best advice?

Make eye contact, and say "No, show me where in the rules it lets you do so."

If she tries pointing to Exalted Animal Companion, the proper response is "That feat only exists because you can't normally apply templates to animal companions. Otherwise, it wouldn't need to exist."

You're the DM, she's the player; she has to justify her usage of the rules to you, not vice-versa.

[Jackinthegreen]

Clarification:  Soft Insanity is not the DM.  Last sentence of the OP says so.

But yeah, a rule has to specifically allow the character to add a template to the companion because the general case is templates are not allowed for them.

[Soft Insanity]

I'm leary about 90% of the party power being in the druid's animal companion.  I can scale up to that level just fine, i'd just rather nip in the bud with some hard rules.  Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any hard rules about having an outsider as an animal companion or loading it up with templates other than the "typical" thing.  That's pretty vague in and of itself and i'd be a hypocrite if i screamed an animal companion can't have templates as I've used warbeast on my own brixashulties in the past.

[Amechra]

The thing is, Warbeast has specific rules for adding it to a creature; most other templates do not.

[CJH]

BOED p.29
"sainthood is a gift bestowed by the
deities of good and the mightiest celestials to those exalted
heroes who deserve it"

Is the player's character a deity of good or a celestial? No?

Then she has no way of applying the template to said dinosaur

Unless some third party published a way of getting outsider animal companions, there is no way of getting a outsider as a animal companion without house rules

The DM of course could apply the template to the dinosaur and allow her to keep the outsider as a animal companion even though there are no rules that say it can be done

Going for the animal companions can't have templates is probably not the way to go considering there are explicit examples of animal companions being allowed to have templates. Celestial and Magebred for example

[Jackinthegreen]

Said templates have specific instructions for animal companions though.  The Saint template does no such thing, nor do the vast majority of other templates.

The rule would go "Animal Companions cannot have templates unless the template itself specifically says it can be used on ACs or there is an ability from somewhere else that specifically says it applies a template to an AC."  Specific trumps general, thus the specific template rules trumps the general rule of ACs not having templates.

[CJH]

The Saint template is only allowed by DM fiat even when applied to player characters

So if said player says "can my Fleshraker have the Saint Template and remain my animal companion" and the DM says "yes your Celestial Fleshraker animal companion  has been granted Sainthood by the Goddess Mielikki (or whoever her Druid worships) and remains your loyal animal companion" then for that campaign that specific Fleshraker animal companion is allowed to have the Saint template

Soft Insanity should be trying to convince the DM that a animal companion being canonized as a saint is ridiculous or inappropriate rather than trying to argue that a template that is only granted by DM fiat can't be granted if the DM rules it can

[Tonymitsu]

I'm face palming here.  There's a player who insists that she can add the saint template to her already vow of poverty fleshraker (which is loaded with templates).  My advice was to not do this as it's pretty clear you lose the companion as its type changes to outsider.

The player insists there's no clear part in the rules that says an outsider can't be an animal companion.  So who's right? (i'm not the gm, but i'm against this level of cheese)

Caelic's Ten Commandments to Practical Optimization.

Right there in number 2:

"The rules don't say I can't!" is not practical optimization.
There are many things that the rules don't explicitly say you can't do. The rules don't explicitly say you can't do the "I'm a Little Teapot" dance and instantly heal back to full starting hit points as a result. The rules don't explicitly say your first level character can't have a titanium-reinforced skeleton and cybernetic weaponry.

This is because the rules are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do--not what you can't. An underlying assumption is that, apart from common-sense actions which anyone can perform, the system will tell you if a given character has a given ability.