PF: gestalt melee Alchemist

[Unbeliever]

Hi all, can I pick your brains/expertise for another PF gestalt build?  I think I have a decent idea for the core of the build, but don't know what to do with the "b side." 

Campaign Info: Shackled City Adventure Path (no spoilers!), 3rd level, gestalt, reasonably favorable stat rolling

Party:  Paladin | Hunter (self-buff focused, I think), Warmage | ??

Notes:  the party doesn't consist of hard-core optimizers, so we don't need to break the bank, exactly.  And, given that it's gestalt, I try not to optimize too hard anyway, seeing as we've got so much power in our side already.

Core Concept:  Skinwalker race, Vivisectionist Beastomorph Alchemist with some, or perhaps a lot, of Master Chymist.  Key feats are:  Shatter Defenses, Cornugon Smash, Potion Glutton.  The basics are pretty straightforward -- get a chunk of natural attacks, hit them and demoralize, and then use that to trigger sneak attacks.  Potion Glutton gets me some swift action usage of my Alchemist extracts, not to mention potions. 

Besides that, I'm not real sure.  Ideally, I'd love some way to jack up my stats to stick with the buffed melee routine.  Here's some of my thinking:

• As I mentioned, I don't need to optimize this too hard.  I don't think I'll need more than the 5(!) natural attacks that I've already got and much more than the sneak attack than Vivisectionist gives me.  There's some attraction to a bit of Rogue, but I don't want to be chucking 80d6 damage a round, or at least I don't want to work too hard at that.
• Unless there's a really good reason, would prefer something relatively martial on the "b side."  Spellcasting is great, but I am primarily a melee guy and have a nice action economy thing going on.  Spellcasting would throw a wrench in that and also would be a whole other thing to keep track of.  Also, I'd like to get Cornugon Smash as quickly as I can, and it requires BAB +6
• Until I get Cornugon Smash, is there another good way to set up sneak attacks for this character?  The Paladin player is another melee type, though I don't think he's going to have an animal companion.
• I like the Rogue Talent Sneaky Manuever (free combat maneuver on a sneak attack) or the Bounty Hunter's (Slayer archetype) Dirty Trick.  I know dirty trick is a suboptimal tactic, but getting it instead of a sneak attack, especially if my Strength is high enough to make it work, has potential.  There are some other neat Rogue/Ninja/Slayer talents, too, like Pressure Points.
• Just grab mostly Fighter or Brawler base classes?  Possibly Slayer?  Inquisitor?
• I know PrCs aren't great in Pathfinder, but there's some chance I could adapt Master of Many Forms, provided that wouldn't be too much of a headache.  Pathfinder doesn't seem to have anything comparable for a dedicated shapeshifter, other than the very complex and very powerful Druid (which would totally overshadow being an Alchemist).  Other PrCs that seemed like they had potential were Dragon Disciple (which pales in comparison to MOMF ...) or Living Monolith

[Frogman55]

You probably want a full BAB class to level out your Alchemist levels. Bumping up your will might be strongly considered as well.

So.... why not Barbarian? Or maybe even Bloodrager? I know you said no spells, but you can rage after drinking your mutagen to pump even more buffs into your system, and there are plenty of rage powers that can synergize well with natural attacks and cornugon smash.

Fighter is good, when you want feats. Brawler's main contribution to this build would be bonuses on combat maneuvers. Rogue... more sneak attack. Slayer gets you a bit more sneak attack, a talent, and full BAB. Barbarian gets you another +4 Str & Con that stacks with the mutagen and shape changing. Uncanny dodge, fast movement, and rage powers are just icing on the cake that is your ridiculous Hyde (pun intended).

[Unbeliever]

Yeah, Bloodrager or Barbarian has some potential.  I'm leaning a bit towards the former, but I have only just started to look at it.  Brawler's flexible feats seems appealing, but I think in practice it would be a disappointment.  If I go Bloodrager, though, I'd be worried about MAD depending on how well I roll my stats.

I think it's between Bloodrager and Slayer, then.  Part of that will just come down to my mood and seeing what powers they each have.  I think Bloodrager is more interesting overall, but Slayer might have more synergy.

There's nothing out there that I'm missing in the full BAB and maybe has a few neat abilities department is there?  Alchemist runs off of Int, so ideally a kind of Paladinesque Int class would be nice to look at, too.

Finally, any thoughts about Inquisitor?  I know it's only 3/4 BAB, but does it bring some additional swift action stuff that might be interesting to the mix, right? 

[Frogman55]

Don't worry too much about being MAD as a bloodrager - you can get by with just 12-14, depending on how high a level you go. Don't worry about bonus spells or DCs, you'll just be using the buff and utility stuff. Frankly, the same is probably true of your alchemist levels and INT.

[Unbeliever]

Thanks for the advice.  I'm going to pore over those options and see what I think.  There are things I like about the Bloodrager, and things I don't.  It gets so few spells per day that it almost crosses into my "why bother?" territory.  Five-ish spells per day is not all that exciting.  Though there may be some rage powers worth pillaging -- the list is dizzying and like everything in PF, there's a lot of crap.

I have a kind of love/hate thing with gestalt in Pathfinder.  On the one hand, it helps counteract PF's character design philosophy, which seems to be:  pick class, race, and archetype and then go.  Compared to D&D's approach, that's yawn-inducing.  I suspect if I played PF a lot, I'd get bored of it.  On the other hand, it does complicate things a lot -- and I'm a n00b at Pathfinder, which doesn't help -- which leads me to overthink character builds.

[Frogman55]

Thanks for the advice.  I'm going to pore over those options and see what I think.  There are things I like about the Bloodrager, and things I don't.  It gets so few spells per day that it almost crosses into my "why bother?" territory.  Five-ish spells per day is not all that exciting.  Though there may be some rage powers worth pillaging -- the list is dizzying and like everything in PF, there's a lot of crap.

I have a kind of love/hate thing with gestalt in Pathfinder.  On the one hand, it helps counteract PF's character design philosophy, which seems to be:  pick class, race, and archetype and then go.  Compared to D&D's approach, that's yawn-inducing.  I suspect if I played PF a lot, I'd get bored of it.  On the other hand, it does complicate things a lot -- and I'm a n00b at Pathfinder, which doesn't help -- which leads me to overthink character builds.

Yeah, the anti-multiclass and anti-PrC does kinda stomp down on a lot of interesting builds. The lack of unique racial options (racial options that still feel like they matter after level 3) makes it worse.

On the bright side, there are a ridiculous number of archetypes available which helps greatly; many archetypes substantially change the way a class functions. Add in the 'pick from this box' class features (i.e. Arcana, Exploits, Rage Powers, Talents, etc.) and you can customize a build more than the class/race combo would seem to indicate. Especially outside of core.

It's also getting better as they publish more. The ACG opened up lots and lots of options, and this summer's Occult book will open up even more. And we're finally having enough options to open up a few legitimately unique and interesting builds.

Personally, my big complaint about Pathfinder is the insistence that they're more 'balanced' than 3.5. Sure, the skills are a little better, and a PF fighter is a bit stronger than a 3.5 fighter, but all the old dichotomies and differences exist. In some ways they're even worse as people insist on keeping martial types 'realistic' but allowing magical types to have the same old spells. ToB and the move towards fixed-spell-list casters went a long way towards leveling the imbalances in the 3.5 system. Now the only thing available are the gish-in-a-can classes.

[Keldar]

The Songbird of Doom may be my favorite gimmick build for PF.   

[Unbeliever]

That's pretty much my experience with Pathfinder so far.  The songbird is funny, though probably way more brutal than I want to be in this group.  Any other neat builds or combos you know of offhand?  I do have a whole other half of a character to consider. 

I'll let you know what I see when I get a chance to look over some books towards the end of the week.  I'd love the feedback from people more familiar with PF than I am.  It's hard, it's so close to D&D, so I expect to have the same familiarity with it, but alas.

[Frogman55]

That's pretty much my experience with Pathfinder so far.  The songbird is funny, though probably way more brutal than I want to be in this group.  Any other neat builds or combos you know of offhand?  I do have a whole other half of a character to consider. 

I'll let you know what I see when I get a chance to look over some books towards the end of the week.  I'd love the feedback from people more familiar with PF than I am.  It's hard, it's so close to D&D, so I expect to have the same familiarity with it, but alas.

Well, given that you're already planning on playing an alchemist, I feel compelled to point out the infusion + touch injection + skinsend trick.

[Unbeliever]

Yeah, I know about Skinsend.  It's so mean that I might avoid doing it.  I'm already going to be a gestalt beast.

I think I'm sold on the Barbarian.  Rage cycling gets rid of the thing that frustrated me the most about a lot of rage powers, and there are a lot of interesting options there.  Savage Dirty Trick and Come and Get Me are calling my name.  Let me know what you think of this:

Race:  Skinwalker (Ragebred)
Class (side A):  Alchemist 3 -- vivisectionist and beastomorph archetypes
Class (side B):  Barbarian 2

• not sure about archetypes, drunken brute seems decent with potion glutton, if largely unnecessary.  I think it's between Invulnerable Rager and Scarred Rager
• I'm also not sure about Rage Powers.  There aren't a lot of great ones that I can get at this low level.  I'm tempted to nab Strength Surge or Superstition just to get the prereqs out of the way.  I considered getting Beast Totem or Abyssal Blood to make sure I always have claws.  But, I figure between the Feral Mutagen, Alter Self, and maybe another potion or extract here or there, I should be fine.

-- and --
Oracle 1 -- lame curse, battle revelation (weapon mastery) -- seeker archetype

• Lame gets me into eventual rage cycling, and I don't mind the slower movement speed (it will be a nice contrast to the other characters I'm playing and I wanted to wear the heaviest armor I could anyway).  Battle Revelation gets me Weapon Focus, which is a useful pre-req.  Seeker lets me pretend to be a Rogue in ways that fit the concept.

Feats:  Potion Glutton, Weapon Focus (bonus), Power Attack

• eventual plan is Cornugon Smash + Shatter Defenses, which is 3 feats total counting the Dazzling Display prereq.  So, 9th level until it all comes together, maybe a little earlier if I dip Fighter. 
  

Does pretty much what you expect a gestalt Hyde to do.  Although I might be a little more tactical than just sheer dealing damage.  Relies on Feral Mutagen and the racial natural attacks, or when the Mutagen is on cooldown can throw a shapeshifting spell (Alter Self, etc.) for special attacks.  I figure I can buy a few potions of Invigorate or some Allnight as a poor man's Rage Cycling until 9th level.

[deadkitten]

maybe consider the urban barbarian archetype so you could use extracts while raging?

[Frogman55]

Why can't you drink a potion while raging? You certainly can't prepare them, but the alchemist's 'casting' method isn't casting at all, it's just chugging a potion. The text specifically says 'as if imbibing a potion.'

I suppose a GM could say no potions while raging, but it's hard to claim that using a potions requires concentration or patience.

[Unbeliever]

^ this was my understanding as well.  There's no skill check, etc. involved, and they are defined as "potion-like."  Although a quick glance over the FAQ from Paizo shows that they have no idea how they work either.

I think it's safe to assume that extracts will be treated like potions for our table at least.

I looked at Urban Barbarian b/c it fit, but it seems you lose a fair bit of the stat boosts for the marginal flexibility it offers, no? 

[deadkitten]

Ehh.

The con bonus for barbarians in pathfinder can get you killed if you are not carefull. And if you combine it with something like invulnerable rager and the come and get me rage power then the ability to boost Dex will help with attacks of opportunities.

Or you could use it to drop strength altogether and go a pure Dex route with an amulet of mighty fists with the agile enchantment.

You would be rocking some pretty good DR,AC, and damage that way.