Author Topic: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?  (Read 10215 times)

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2015, 11:09:48 AM »
I agree and I wouldnt have a problem with rolling if it wasnt for my wish to play a trip fighter.
Its ok, if something like passive way monk or wolf totem barb is allowed, otherwise you basically need 4 at least ok stats.
STR/Con, as much as possible, although a dwarf could be ok with 14CON(+2 dwarf=16)
DEX for a trip build needs at the very least 12, 14 would be better
INT, 13 otherwise drop. Depending on PrC maybe 10
WIS, 10 would be ok, although a 1 level dip Cleric -STR domain would be sweet for enlarge person (needs 12 WIS) ;)
CHA, drop to 8 (-2 dwarf)

thats pretty hard to get with dices, with 28 PB you can be ok, but you never get anything beyond 16.
If you want to play a Paladin you will faces a similar problem.

But yes, coming back to your post: The classes and PrC limitations weight more for melees.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 11:12:54 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2015, 11:22:48 AM »
Hmm, we've always been pretty generous with rolling, which might also tinge my feelings about it.  Usually 4d6, drop lowest, and we vary back and forth on rerolling 1s.  And, there's a general "wow that was horrendous, try again" rule.  Mostly, we want everyone to be reasonably happy with their character, and we recognize the quirks in the system (e.g., MAD). 

Basically, we're generous RPG communists who exercise our malevolent impulses in encounter design. 

Offline TuggyNE

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2015, 01:20:46 AM »
The talk continues, this time about possible starting stats for future adventures.

What we used so far: 32 point buy

My suggestion: 26-28 point buy

Keep in mind that the difference between 28 point and 32 point buy is that two of your stats go from 14 to 15, or one goes from 17 to 18 and one from 13 to 14. It's ... not really that massive a difference.

(Assuming my mental arithmetic is correct here. I don't feel like hunting down a PB calculator right now.)

Also, I think stats might be a balance issue at very early levels, but class, feat, etc. options loom much larger.  Forcing a Rogue into Core Only vs. forcing a Druid into Core Only will have a more massive effect on those characters' respective abilities than the fickle dice gods. 

Seconded.
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Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2015, 09:43:55 AM »
Another thing to consider is that lower point buy hurts the mundanes more than it hurts caster builds. (i.e., wizards only need Int, monks are MAD) (it goes with out saying that this is only generally true and there are many exceptions)

Offline littha

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2015, 05:34:04 AM »
Another thing to consider is that lower point buy hurts the mundanes more than it hurts caster builds. (i.e., wizards only need Int, monks are MAD) (it goes with out saying that this is only generally true and there are many exceptions)

This. Big time.

Basically all the strongest classes can get away with a one or two high stats (Casting stat + Con), whereas mundane characters can require a lot more.

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2015, 09:42:42 AM »
A a reminder: The problem from where we started was mostly that PCs are too strong in relation to encounters.

Now we already statet tha the biggest reason for that is the book istelf.
When I was DM I always took the encounters only as guides and basically decieded on a whim, weither the AC has to be higher, how much hits the monster can take and so on. But I had the same problem. Unless I made something WAY more powerfull, it was barely a challenge.

Our current DM likes to stick more to whats written and that may be part of the problem too.

That aside, playing powerfull characters mith 32 point buy might work into that as well.
And reducing the starting points might resolve in slightly humbler characters...at least thats the hope of our DM.
The disbalance between the classes, while there, doesnt feel as much of a problem so far.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 09:44:28 AM by Dwarfi »

Offline littha

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2015, 10:19:14 AM »
A a reminder: The problem from where we started was mostly that PCs are too strong in relation to encounters.

Now we already statet tha the biggest reason for that is the book istelf.
When I was DM I always took the encounters only as guides and basically decieded on a whim, weither the AC has to be higher, how much hits the monster can take and so on. But I had the same problem. Unless I made something WAY more powerfull, it was barely a challenge.

Our current DM likes to stick more to whats written and that may be part of the problem too.

That aside, playing powerfull characters mith 32 point buy might work into that as well.
And reducing the starting points might resolve in slightly humbler characters...at least thats the hope of our DM.
The disbalance between the classes, while there, doesnt feel as much of a problem so far.

Messing with the starting points will barely do anything. Having played between 24 point buy and 44 point buy I have to say it doenst really do that much to affect the power level of the characters if they are built well.

If he wants to stick to the monster statblocks as written the easiest way to make a fight more challenging is to duplicate the enemies. Instead of fighting 3 goblins and a hobgoblin you fight 5 goblins and 2 hobgoblins. Extremely easy to do from a DM standpoint.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 10:21:48 AM by littha »

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2015, 11:05:22 AM »
A a reminder: The problem from where we started was mostly that PCs are too strong in relation to encounters.

Now we already statet tha the biggest reason for that is the book istelf.
When I was DM I always took the encounters only as guides and basically decieded on a whim, weither the AC has to be higher, how much hits the monster can take and so on. But I had the same problem. Unless I made something WAY more powerfull, it was barely a challenge.

Our current DM likes to stick more to whats written and that may be part of the problem too.
For the record, when I DM I barely modify the monsters.  I'll perhaps give them some different feats.  Or, honestly, I'll add a few feats to them to change up their tactics a bit.  And, maybe a magic item or an ersatz magic item (i.e., its effects without them actually carrying the item) or two.  But, I cleave very closely to the monsters in the book.  There is not much of a modification.  And, with roughly CR-appropriate encounters, meaning within a handful of CR of the PCs, I end up being kind of a bloody-handed GM.  (Edit:  I might also modify their hit points, giving them closer to max than their baseline 1/2.  But, I do something similar to the PCs, too). 

Honestly, if I wanted to make monsters really from scratch, I wouldn't run D&D.  The monster manuals are like half the reason I bother with the game. 

Which is a long-winded way of saying it's the adventure.  And, of course, if you add an extra PC in there and don't change up the encounters, it's gonna throw the CR way out of whack.  But, if my experience with written adventures is any guide, especially the Dragonlance ones, the encounters are designed with virtually no eye to gameplay. 

That aside, playing powerfull characters mith 32 point buy might work into that as well.
And reducing the starting points might resolve in slightly humbler characters...at least thats the hope of our DM.
The disbalance between the classes, while there, doesnt feel as much of a problem so far.
Honestly, you're just gonna have to trust us on this one.  The fact that we're saying that small bumps in stats amount to little after say 3rd level is based on a lot of theory and a lot of experience.  The imbalance between classes is very much a table thing.  But, knocking a few stats down to 12 from 14 is not going to change much of anything in the long run. 

Given the problem, it might just be best to go with the lower point buy b/c it will make everyone feel better and feel like they're really working towards solving the problem.  But, it's barely a fix.  And, as we've stated here, maybe even worse than that b/c it puts another point in favor of the powerful classes.  On the other hand, it's a small difference, so that small bump might be worth it for the espirit de corps vis-a-vis game balance. 

Offline Keldar

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2015, 11:53:37 AM »
A a reminder: The problem from where we started was mostly that PCs are too strong in relation to encounters.

No, the problem is it is impossible to write a generic adventure that properly challenges any number of unknown PCs.  The writers basically have to write for the lowest common denominator. (Or say fuck it, and make a Gygaxian murder machine that only psychics may pass through.)
Even within that lowest common denominator party, power can vary dramatically.  An archery rogue is dead weight in a party who's wizard doesn't take Grease or similar spells.  And even a good Cleric build can be turned into little more than a walking band-aid if the rest of the party ignores defense.  Only a DM that knows the current PC party's strengths and weaknesses can make an adventure that will successfully challenge them in an entertaining manner.  You'll never, ever run a published adventure and challenge the PCs without spending the time tailoring encounters to them.

The PCs steamrollering encounters isn't because they're too strong, its because the encounters are written for a party that has never existed.

Of course it doesn't help that D&D was written by guys that can barely do math, and worshiped the wrong sacred cows, and its trivially easy to accidentally start playing rocket tag. 
...I wonder how things would play out doubling or even tripling everything's hit points.  Everything.   :plot

Offline Dwarfi

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Re: 3.5e Group discussion on balance - your thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2015, 02:32:28 PM »


...I wonder how things would play out doubling or even tripling everything's hit points.  Everything.   :plot

I basically did that in a way. When I was DM I started to get a feeling for how much dmg my group was able to dish out and so I adjustedt the hitpoints. But only as a guide.
It depended on what the purpose of the encounter was, but if it was supposed to be a cool monster, it had to survive at least 2 or 3 rounds to leave an impression. Meaning that unless they scored an epic crit or something alike, then the monster just didnt die, before I decided that it was ok to die.
While it can be cool to kill an encounter with 1 hit or spell, it is usually not entertaining for the rest of the group.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I have a lot of stuff to talk with my group about and to consider for the next adventure.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 04:01:55 PM by Dwarfi »