Author Topic: Joystealer  (Read 11255 times)

Offline Anomander

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Joystealer
« on: November 14, 2011, 02:09:53 AM »
Joystealer


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Joystealer Paragon


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« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 01:19:46 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2011, 12:21:41 PM »
Joystealer Body:Everything looks ok here, you caught up with the standards pretty fast.

Figment of Reality:Ok, you put some limitations, which is always nice, but permanent incorporeability at first level is still somewhat too strong at first level whitout drawbacks (take a look at the ghost I just ported). In this case, altough enemies may still be able to hurt you, as an incporporeal creature you can still merge inside objects, which is extreme utility at this early level.

Drain Emotions:Should probably be divided in two abilities, kinda too long now. Replicating 4 medium-level spells at first level may be  a bit too much, but the quite short durations probably make up for it. Clarify if the 5 HD ability demands any extra action or is free with each suecessful touch attack.

Emotion Dependency:A flavourful drawback, but with barely any game impact since you can choose to deal minimum damage. I supose it's there just for the fluff.

Ability Score Increase: +5 cha and +2 dex over 5 levels, seems ok.

Fey Body: More standard stuff.

Unheartly Grace:
Ok, you said you were using the pixie as balance. Then you should've noticed the pixie only gains this at 8th level. Why should the Joystealer gain it 6 levels earlier?

Fey Mysteries: An interesting take, allowing either bard or sorceror spellcasting. It would probably be easier to say that sorceror spellcasting can't pick from two schools than saying it can pick from almost all schools. Still I must ask why spellcasting? The pixie got it because fluff-wise it's suposed to be a specially mystic fey, but joystealers seem more like melee skirmishers, needing to close in melee to eat emotions.

Hit a Raw Nerve:
Oh, I like this one! I can just see the joystealer "striking" at oponent's insecurities and phobias. But why just nonlethal damage? Words do hurt! (and nonlethal damage isn't really that useful). Even better, to allow to pick between dealing lethal and nonlethal damage. I would even go as far as to sugest to start Raw neve at first level, togheter with more incorporeality limiations, since otherwise the Joystealer isn't doing much in combat as while they're inflicting HP damage, you're mostly inflicting Cha damage.

Sense Emotions: Nice. I would sugest not needing actions right away, but the class's quite filled as it is.

No Hard Feelings:
Clarify what happens if you're hit by an area effect. Do you drain it all and stop it from affecting others, or just yourself?

Whispers from the Soul (Ex):
Ah, nice capstone, flavourfull and powerful! :clap

Paragon

The image kinda reminds me of a vampire, with the bloody hand and everything. But it also fits for this and is wicked cool! :P

Spells per Day/Spells Known: Ok, even if the base Joystealer ends up with the spells, why should the paragon have them? The Pixie paragon has no spellcasting progression, just SLAs.

Improved Fey Body: You may want to add the new " can raise or drop SR as a free action etc". I've been trying to add it to the older monsters as possible.

Heart Strings:Nice and original as well! Clarify that you use a regular action to affect all stringed targets.  Is it suposed to inflict friendly fire?

Ability Score Increase: With this you'll be pulling ahead two Cha points ahead of the pixie, just saying (altough you already were one point ahead with the base class).

Unlock the Heart:
So, why does love only works while in line of sight? Also kinda problematic in that the joystealer can just keep stacking people loving her for all eternity. Really needs something to prevent that.

Hate is probably too nasty, turning your oponents against each other always is, in particular because I don't see a way to reverse it (while Charm monster has some break clauses).

Courage seems quite ok, actually somewhat lackluster compared to the others.

Fear is strong, but if it's just one target unless they're stringed I guess it's ok.

Clarity is healbot material, always good to have available altough situational so ok.

I don't see why anyone would want to use the Confusion option when they can just make them hate another enemy or love the joystealer.



Complete Drain is fine if the enemy can still use non-moral actions.

Apathy is a nasty save-or-die, but I guess it's ok at 15 HD.

The clause to ignore immunities gained this early is not (even if you need to wait untill 10 HD). The pixie paragon only gains it at its 3rd level.

Heartless Grace:And with spellcasting improvement on top, not really confortable with this.

Joy Theft:
Seting up the DCs of your save-or-die as skill checks is simply a no. Skills are just too easy to improve.

Well, overall I like where this's going, there's original abilities and you're following the monster's theme, but I also feel like there's some power creep and by 8th level the Joystealer paragon is geting somewhat too scary abilities, in particular the DC=skill check problem.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 10:03:54 PM »
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Figment of Reality:Ok, you put some limitations, which is always nice, but permanent incorporeability at first level is still somewhat too strong at first level whitout drawbacks (take a look at the ghost I just ported). In this case, altough enemies may still be able to hurt you, as an incporporeal creature you can still merge inside objects, which is extreme utility at this early level.
You're right. I removed the ability to hide into object 'till level 10.
The ghost offers the entire entire incorporeal subtype and ethereality from the get go with the Grave Bond as its only real drawback or limit.
I found a few ways the Grave Bond drawback might be abused to the Ghost's advantage. I'll post on the Ghost page on the matter later.

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Drain Emotions:Should probably be divided in two abilities, kinda too long now. Replicating 4 medium-level spells at first level may be a bit too much, but the quite short durations probably make up for it. Clarify if the 5 HD ability demands any extra action or is free with each suecessful touch attack.
I already have. Instead of making all the emotional effects unlock at HD 7, 11, 15 within this ability I made a separate Unlock the Heart ability to split them in two.
The first part of this ability is more flavorful than useful considering the opponent is already defeated when its Cha score drops to 0.
I thought the spell emulating effects were balanced for the early levels in that they had a short duration, could only affect a single creature at a time and needs the Joystealer to enter melee and inflict charisma damage before they can be used.

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Emotion Dependency:A flavourful drawback, but with barely any game impact since you can choose to deal minimum damage. I supose it's there just for the fluff.
Indeed. Its mostly there to make the Joystealer's emotion-vampirism acceptable for the party. A good aligned party would be more tolerant of the emotional feeding considering it is necessary for the creature to live. The whole eye color thing is something from the original monster I wanted to keep, since its a clear indicator that a joystealer might want to hide since it helps people identify its race and get a good guess as to whether or not interacting with it could be dangerous. Talking with a joystealer and seeing her eyes suddenly shift to a golden glow gives cause to worry.

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Unheartly Grace: Ok, you said you were using the pixie as balance. Then you should've noticed the pixie only gains this at 8th level. Why should the Joystealer gain it 6 levels earlier?
Yes, but the pixie gets Pixie Finesse instead, along with SR that the joystealer acquires later. Unearthly Grace gets upgraded at the level the pixie gets this ability, granting the missing half, effectively getting one solid ability instead of two.

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Fey Mysteries: An interesting take, allowing either bard or sorceror spellcasting. It would probably be easier to say that sorceror spellcasting can't pick from two schools than saying it can pick from almost all schools. Still I must ask why spellcasting? The pixie got it because fluff-wise it's suposed to be a specially mystic fey, but joystealers seem more like melee skirmishers, needing to close in melee to eat emotions.
I thought that simply saying that they are banned from three schools would be easier too, but I felt Illusion, Enchantment and Transmutation were the classical fey spells. But I agree that making it easier might be better.
The pixie is more like a ranged skirmisher (invisibility, arrows and some reconnaissance and battlefield control SLAs) while I saw the joystealers' emotion eating as a good foundation to become super-bards.
I then saw in the creature description that some joystealers progressed usually progressed into rogue levels and some became spellcasters (though they might have to spend a feat for the material component issue) and that inspired me to give them more synergy with the bards by advancing their spellcasting.

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Hit a Raw Nerve: Oh, I like this one! I can just see the joystealer "striking" at oponent's insecurities and phobias. But why just nonlethal damage? Words do hurt! (and nonlethal damage isn't really that useful). Even better, to allow to pick between dealing lethal and nonlethal damage. I would even go as far as to sugest to start Raw neve at first level, togheter with more incorporeality limiations, since otherwise the Joystealer isn't doing much in combat as while they're inflicting HP damage, you're mostly inflicting Cha damage.
I made it nonlethal only because otherwise it was pretty much Sneak Attack without critical immunity to stop it. Construct and Undead creatures are immune to nonlethal damage anyway, so I thought it was balanced in the end. Almost all of the joystealer's abilities are axed on nonlethal combat and that gives them an interesting weakness, I think.
As much as I like the idea of cutting an head off by literally making someone lose his head with frustration, making lethal damage possible is an option I'd shy away from without giving some other condition that would make it more different than Sneak Attack or Skirmish. And, thanks  :D

I also considered making it start at level one but I'm running out of things I can cut off of incorporeality to water it down further.
Keeping it one die behind the rogue allowed the build to act like a multiclassed rogue considering they get almost only Sneak Attacks for a while.

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No Hard Feelings: Clarify what happens if you're hit by an area effect. Do you drain it all and stop it from affecting others, or just yourself?
Done! Hope it makes the whole thing clearer.

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Spells per Day/Spells Known: Ok, even if the base Joystealer ends up with the spells, why should the paragon have them? The Pixie paragon has no spellcasting progression, just SLAs.
Hm. You're right. Perhaps the pixie paragon class intended to progress spellcasting considering the wording of Fey Blood.
If that's not the case, then maybe only progressing bardic spellcasting would work.

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Improved Fey Body: You may want to add the new " can raise or drop SR as a free action etc". I've been trying to add it to the older monsters as possible.
Hmm. Maybe. SR by default allows a creature to lower it as a standard action, which isn't so much of a bother considering it never interferes with their own spellcasting. Making it a free action sounds like an ability of its own.

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Heart Strings:Nice and original as well! Clarify that you use a regular action to affect all stringed targets.  Is it suposed to inflict friendly fire?
Well, it already requires a Fullround action to activate, so I'm not sure how to make it more clear. Perhaps give the option to affect a single target as a standard action, since it would sort of make sense. Making friendly fire possible was intended to allow party buffs. But not attacking certain targets should be possible, I'll edit to clarify.

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Ability Score Increase: With this you'll be pulling ahead two Cha points ahead of the pixie, just saying (altough you already were one point ahead with the base class).
Maybe I missed something but the pixie base class gives a total ability score increase of 8 and the pixie paragon gives a total increase of 4 (total of 12)
while the joystealer base class offers a total ability score increase of 7 and the joystealer paragon gives a total increase of 5 (total of 12)

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Unlock the Heart: So, why does love only works while in line of sight? Also kinda problematic in that the joystealer can just keep stacking people loving her for all eternity. Really needs something to prevent that.
I thought limiting it to subjects within line of sight might make it more manageable, or make it possible to make people love someone they never seen or heard of.
I don't see the duration as so much of a problem considering Charm Monster lasts one day per caster level and can become more or less permanent by making  a diplomacy check afterwards. I'll make it clear that the effect only puts the target's emotion to that state, but does not lock into it.

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Hate is probably too nasty, turning your oponents against each other always is, in particular because I don't see a way to reverse it (while Charm monster has some break clauses).
Aye. I thought making someone hate another might not be that much of an advantage in battle considering it does not break allegiances and does not make them less hostile towards you  or change the who-to-kill priority order. (I imagined a wizard not caring about affecting a specific ally with his fireball to hit some party members)
I'll drop the attitude to Unfriendly instead, allowing opposed charisma checks to be convinced to act against the interests of the hated subject.
That would effectively make it mirror the Charm Monster effect. A diplomacy/charm monster effect among other things would counter it.

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Courage seems quite ok, actually somewhat lackluster compared to the others.
Yeeeah. I thought so too. Maybe have it grant some temporary hit points would be adequate.
Maybe twice the joystealer's HD.

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I don't see why anyone would want to use the Confusion option when they can just make them hate another enemy or love the joystealer.
Insanity is a good offensive effect. It takes many Love effects until the target stops trying to kill every member of your party and Hate might not make them stop trying to kill you (I think Hate is better used out of battle). Confusion has a 9/10 chance of not making them act normally, and is mostly to the whole party's advantage.

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Complete Drain is fine if the enemy can still use non-moral actions.
It can, but its hard to do anything when it lacks all the emotions that could motivate it to do them.
Its like a Flesh to Stone spell, but the target only gets a heart of stone.

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The clause to ignore immunities gained this early is not (even if you need to wait untill 10 HD). The pixie paragon only gains it at its 3rd level.
A inspired most of the order on the pixie but I used trends used by many other monsters.
The pixie gets it at level 8 instead of level 10, though it doesn't just work with only SLA, applying it on its spells as well.
If the order the clause appears at is the actual issue, well, the Cheshire Cat gets it at level 3.

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Joy Theft:Seting up the DCs of your save-or-die as skill checks is simply a no. Skills are just too easy to improve.
Absolutely right. Dunno why I thought setting the DC like a bard's Suggestion ability was a good idea. I like the idea of an actual emotion theft from the joystealer, so I'll try to make that fit in there somewhere somehow.

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Well, overall I like where this's going, there's original abilities and you're following the monster's theme, but I also feel like there's some power creep and by 8th level the Joystealer paragon is geting somewhat too scary abilities, in particular the DC=skill check problem.
I made a fix to most of the stuff. Thanks for the heads up!
I'll tell you outright that this is you stuff so you got veto on the whole deal. If you'd like something to be removed, added or modified in some specific way, just say so and its done.
Just trying to help with the project a little.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 02:10:33 AM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 02:24:44 PM »
Figment of Reality: Seems ok now.

Drain Emotions: Yes, I agree that with the limitations it's ok.


Unheartly Grace:
The joystealer is already geting Cha to AC from being incorporeal, and Evasion is definetely worth more than a feat. Boosted saves kinda make up for the SR. However the pixie starts casting at 2nd level so I guess it evens out here.


Fey Mysteries:Well you can always forbid them from banning certain schools. Also, see, around here when I want a monster to have spellcaster synergy I usually give it pseudo-spellcaster (no actual spells, but improved ). The pixie is pretty much the only monster that gets spellcasting, and that's because it was originally done by somebody else and they made a quite good argument about it. Now I'm not saying to remove it from the joystealer it's an option that deserves to be explored, just something to take in mind so you don't start doing it for every monster that may be magic-related. :P

On another note, the sorceror spellcasting option seems plainly superior to the bardic spellcasting right now. Even with two banned schools and losing another level later on, I would say it's still superior as you could get up to 8th level spells later on.

Hit a Raw Nerve:Eerr, constructs and undeads, being immune to mind-affecting, would also be immune to this (yes it blocks morale bonuses). Mindblank would block it as well.

No hard feelings:
Good now.

Paragon

Spells per Day/Spells Known:I've wondered that myself sometimes. Well, I don't mind boosting the pixie paragon to clearly keep improving spellcasting. :p

Improved Fey Body: the problem it's that it makes harder for allies to buff you. You really don't want to be droped in negatives and die because one of your abilities stoped the party's cleric from healing you.

Heart Strings:
Good now.

Ability Score Increase:
A big bonus to a main score counts much more than multiple bonus to several scores. Altough the diference is not so big here so I guess it's ok.

Unlock the Heart: Love and Heart ok now. Courage now makes the Joystealer quite the buffer

One thing you seem to have missed about confusion it's that if the subject's attacked, they can ignore the confusion role and attack back, so it's not that disabling as other effects. But with the love and hate nerfs it's ok now.

Drain emotions ok.

Good points on the immunity piercing.

Also I think the last paragon level is fine as it is, with a flavourfull ability, increased spellcasting, stat boosts and an ability upgrade.

Quote from: Anomander
I made a fix to most of the stuff. Thanks for the heads up!
I'll tell you outright that this is you stuff so you got veto on the whole deal. If you'd like something to be removed, added or modified in some specific way, just say so and its done.
Just trying to help with the project a little.
Now, I prefer discussing changes with other creators even if it doesn't end exactly like I would do it. It helps keep every class original, and I need to keep open for new ideas. Also sometimes it's just better to take some time to think if something's ok or not, and if I change my mind later I can always tell you so.

Now to a more straight up comparison of each classes main strenghts:

Joystealer:
-Medium size with Scaling incorporeability
- +8 Cha, +4 dex
- 5th level sorceror casting with some minor limitations or 6th level bard casting.
- 12 pseudo-SLAs.
-Immunity piercing with said pseudo-SLAs that eventually can pierce immunities.
-Improved Evasion.
-Cha to saves
-Standard SR and DR
-Flight 60 feet.
-Pseudo sneak attack and cha-damage/drain touch.
-Flight 60 feet (perfect).

Pixie:
-Small size, boosted Spot, Listen and Search.
- -2 Str, +6 Cha, +2 Int, +6 Dex
-5th level sorceror casting, negating familiar acess and necromancy but option to learn some diferent spells.
- 11 SLAs (some of which get upgraded)
-Sleep arrows.
-Standard SR, DR a little better.
-Improved charming abilities including immunity piercing.
-Cha to AC (the joystealer get this from being incorporeal)
-Half Cha to saves.
-Weapon Finesse.
-Evasion.
-Flight 60 feet (good).

Ok, a problem I still see here it's that they're kinda balanced, except that the Joystealer ends up becoming incorporeal, and the Pixie has really nothing making up for that that the Joystealer doesn't get in some form.

On the other hand, I guess the pixie could really use some spiffing up(not really much on the realm of fluffy abilities), so expect an improved ported version on the nearby future! :P

Offline Anomander

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 04:28:29 PM »
Quote
Hit a Raw Nerve:Eerr, constructs and undeads, being immune to mind-affecting, would also be immune to this (yes it blocks morale bonuses). Mindblank would block it as well.
You're totally right. Here comes the puns dealing lethal damage!

And free SR drop/rise as been granted! (Why not. After all you can only do free actions on your own turn. You cannot drop it for an ally's buff on his turn. If you drop to negatives and fall unconscious your ally would still need to pass through it since you cannot do free actions out of turn or when you're unconscious.)

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Fey Mysteries:Well you can always forbid them from banning certain schools. Also, see, around here when I want a monster to have spellcaster synergy I usually give it pseudo-spellcaster (no actual spells, but improved ).

On another note, the sorceror spellcasting option seems plainly superior to the bardic spellcasting right now. Even with two banned schools and losing another level later on, I would say it's still superior as you could get up to 8th level spells later on.
Perhaps pseudo-spellcasting would work better with the concept. I didn't see a monster yet that gave something that felt like pseudo casting but I'd like to see what it looks like and see if I'd better use it instead.
Well, initially it had full bard casting (8th level) against reduced sorcerer casting (5th level). Its actually three banned schools for the sorcerer. They also both have the issue of handling material components while being incorporeal.

Quote
Pixie:
[...] - 11 SLAs (some of which get upgraded)

I know you don't mind the current setup, but I'll say for the sake of comparison that:
I count 17 SLAs, most of which can be used 1/day. Averaging them at x1.5, that makes about 24 x HD SLA uses per day compared to the joystealer's 3 x HD uses per day.
The pixie's SLAs are vastly superior in uses and in application. They can do a lot more than mind-toying and are thus more versatile.
The pixie's Pixie Finesse is very powerful because the Cha to AC is a dodge bonus, which stacks with other dodge bonuses and is much harder to increase. Dodge bonus to AC are rare, while deflection bonus to AC is the most common and one of the cheapest source of AC increase.


The pixie could certainly use some fluff ability though. Maybe something folklore inspired. It did lose its memory loss arrow. Perhaps allow her to make some kind of fey-dance taking X minutes long ritual around a creature they affected with their sleep effect to make them wake up without memories.
Considering a pixie could just coup de grace them instead, it would be a mercy/trickster thing to do.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 04:42:10 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 05:26:51 PM »
And free SR drop/rise as been granted! (Why not. After all you can only do free actions on your own turn. You cannot drop it for an ally's buff on his turn. If you drop to negatives and fall unconscious your ally would still need to pass through it since you cannot do free actions out of turn or when you're unconscious.)
Droped SR only returns in the next round.

Quote
Fey Mysteries:Well you can always forbid them from banning certain schools. Also, see, around here when I want a monster to have spellcaster synergy I usually give it pseudo-spellcaster (no actual spells, but improved ).

On another note, the sorceror spellcasting option seems plainly superior to the bardic spellcasting right now. Even with two banned schools and losing another level later on, I would say it's still superior as you could get up to 8th level spells later on.
Perhaps pseudo-spellcasting would work better with the concept. I didn't see a monster yet that gave something that felt like pseudo casting but I'd like to see what it looks like and see if I'd better use it instead.
Well, initially it had full bard casting (8th level) against reduced sorcerer casting (5th level). Its actually three banned schools for the sorcerer. They also both have the issue of handling material components while being incorporeal.
Pseudo-spellcaster monsters include the Succubus, Lich, Centaur (Khan Wild Soul), Antromorphic Animal (Nature linked apotheosis), Conflagration Ooze, Lantern Archon, Ulgurstasta, Verdant Prince, just out of the top of my head.

Quote
Pixie:
[...] - 11 SLAs (some of which get upgraded)

I know you don't mind the current setup, but I'll say for the sake of comparison that:
I count 17 SLAs, most of which can be used 1/day. Averaging them at x1.5, that makes about 24 x HD SLA uses per day compared to the joystealer's 3 x HD uses per day.
The pixie's SLAs are vastly superior in uses and in application. They can do a lot more than mind-toying and are thus more versatile.
Well the Pixie gets some nice utility, but nothing specialy exciting. Detects and extra languages are nothing to write home about. The joystealer meanwhile gets powerful party buffs combined with some healing. Entangle is powerful at early levels but eventualy becomes irrelevant. The Pixie gets invisibility, but incorporeability is considerably superior and much harder to negate.

Not to mention, the pixie's SLAs, being actual spells, will have to punch trough SR, something the Joystealer's Su abilities don't care about. The only real advantage leftover is extra uses, but still, 3/day per HD will only be a limitation in battles at early levels. The pixie really has not much use in casting Detect Evil in battle.

The pixie's Pixie Finesse is very powerful because the Cha to AC is a dodge bonus, which stacks with other dodge bonuses and is much harder to increase. Dodge bonus to AC are rare, while deflection bonus to AC is the most common and one of the cheapest source of AC increase.
Deflection isn't that common, it's just popular because it counts as touch AC unlike most other AC bonus. Armor and shields are cheaper. And dodge bonusa, altough also useful for touch AC, are lost when you're flatfooted while deflection is always up.

The pixie could certainly use some fluff ability though. Maybe something folklore inspired. It did lose its memory loss arrow. Perhaps allow her to make some kind of fey-dance taking X minutes long ritual around a creature they affected with their sleep effect to make them wake up without memories.
Considering a pixie could just coup de grace them instead, it would be a mercy/trickster thing to do.
That sounds a good start.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 06:54:34 PM »
I see what you mean with pseudocasting now. It could work well but I'd have to figure a new 3rd level ability.  :rolleyes

Quote
The Pixie gets invisibility, but incorporeability is considerably superior and much harder to negate.
Eventually. Figment of Reality removes most of the advantages of it until level 10. Ghost touch and force damage are pretty easy to acquire by the time Figment of Reality makes incorporeality reliable defensively. Especially with the augment crystals.

Deflection bonus to AC is indeed the most common. Deflection is the cheapest bonus to stack on your gear no matter the class and there are many spell buffs increasing it. Dodge bonus to AC remains about as good as untyped bonus to AC.

Perhaps the pixie should be tiny instead of small. I know the original monster is small sized but it always seemed out of place to me.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2011, 12:54:25 PM by Anomander »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 06:36:06 AM »
Ok, I'm willing to acept the ethereality+ delayed spellcasting+goodies, however full bard casting is too much. It should be delayed at least 1 level.

Offline Anomander

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 11:46:22 AM »
You're right. Edited.

Offline FireInTheSky

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Re: Joystealer
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 03:23:51 AM »
Quote from: Joystealer Paragon
Skills: 6+int modifier per level, quadruple at 1st level. Class skills are Craft, Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Perform (any), Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Survival, Tumble, Use Magic Device.

It's a PrC, so it doesn't get the quadruple at 1st.