How would you rate the paragon classes?

[Masakan]

just on a scale of 1-10?

[eggynack]

They're mostly bad, hanging out somewhere between 1 and 3. I think I've seen human see use, probably for adaptive learning, and half-orc seems non-awful. Can't see much of anything else that'd be worth it.

[Nanshork]

I've used Half-Orc Paragon to get rage on a lawful character, that's the only reason I've seen to use any of them.

[SorO_Lost]

On a scale of 1 and would-I-give-up-a-caster-level-for-this? 1.

If you're looking for some houserules through, any campaign that offers reduced the LA should look into offering most of the Paragon Class Features for free to buff the PHB Races so they compete along side monster choices. Which I know may be a little country since people run reduced LA so they can play the monsters they never get to, but sometimes a certain race in the PHB may never get played because the local players just feel it's too insignificant to mechanical use. Like you've probably considered a dashing swordsmen once or twice before but why use the traditional Helf Bard when Helf sucks? Well now it could get an extra two bonus Feats, two assigned +2 Ability Bonuses, +2 Spot/Search, +3 Diplo/Gather, and an extra +2 on all Cha-Skills by siding with Human. Why it's almost worth +1 LA now.

[Endarire]

If you can be a Drow for 0LA, then Drow Paragon1 is an interesting consideration.

I used Human Paragon once to set up a gish before Complete Mage released.

Overall, the racial paragons are generally 'meh' or 'bad.'  Why not be, say, a Warblade or Wizard or another class with class features instead?

[Keldar]

From roughly best to worst:
Half Orc Paragon: Enables lawful characters to Rage,  A unique opportunity.  Can even take Human Paragon later.

Drow Paragon: The only class to give casting at 1st.  For Drow Clerics 1 level is better than a 5th level of Cleric.  For Wizards, it replaces the 3rd level in a builds using Master Specialist.  Only worth the one paragon level though.

Halfling Paragon: Good abilities for Harfling tossers.  As valid as any base class for a throwing build.

Human Paragon: Want UMD or Ijutsu Focus for any class?  Its biggest problem is the one caster level loss, but some builds won't care about that.  Useful for builds that want feats, like Dragonmark builds.  Better than Expert for Humans.

Dwarf Paragon: Full BAB ending with a Con Bonus, probably about as good as taking three more levels of Fighter.

Half Elf Paragon: Bonus Feat at 1st and able to take Human Paragon later.  Even better for Dragonmark builds.

Gnome Paragon: Ok for illusion loving bards, otherwise useless.

Elf Paragon: Almost something.  If this gave full Martial Weapon Proficiency rather than redundant racial proficiencies it would be useful for Gish, as is it might be a decent way to end a wizard build you have no real plans for.

Orc Paragon: Substitute for Warrior NPCs and not much else.

Half Dragon Paragon: If this gave Weapon and Armor Proficiency this might have a point.  As is, spending a feat can do more for your breath weapon with less.  Junk.

Tiefling Paragon:  Craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap.


If Paragon Classes allowed you to gain casting rather than simply progressing existing casting, they'd all be a ton more useful.  Except Tiefling, because its garbage.

[eggynack]

Drow Paragon: The only class to give casting at 1st.  For Drow Clerics 1 level is better than a 5th level of Cleric.  For Wizards, it replaces the 3rd level in a builds using Master Specialist.  Only worth the one paragon level though.

Drow paragon is weird, because its casting loss is kinda front loaded into the race itself, through LA. So, yes, drow paragon is the likely second best if you take as assumed that you're already the race in question, but if you're considering the value prior to making that racial decision it goes way down. Lesser drow probably gets it back to its second place status though.

[Keldar]

I went largely for the value for the race that can take the class.  Drow Paragon 1 is nice enough, Drow not so much.  Ditto for Half Elf.  Only Half Orc has enough mojo on its own to swing race choice for specific goals, which is why I placed it first.  Half Elf and Human make Dragonmark builds more appealing, but those are also race based decisions.

[Nanshork]

Drow Paragon: The only class to give casting at 1st.  For Drow Clerics 1 level is better than a 5th level of Cleric.  For Wizards, it replaces the 3rd level in a builds using Master Specialist.  Only worth the one paragon level though.

Drow paragon is weird, because its casting loss is kinda front loaded into the race itself, through LA. So, yes, drow paragon is the likely second best if you take as assumed that you're already the race in question, but if you're considering the value prior to making that racial decision it goes way down. Lesser drow probably gets it back to its second place status though.

Don't forget LA buyoff which has a tendency to be assumed allowed given that this is Char Op.

[SorO_Lost]

Half Orc Paragon: Enables lawful characters to Rage,  A unique opportunity.  Can even take Human Paragon later.

Spending 10,000gp on a Mantle of Rage says anyone can Rage once per day. From there you can spend 4,5000gp (aka 90gp/charge) on a Wand of Blood Frenzy to increase the number of times you can Rage per day, which given the forgive & forget nature of WBL on expendables it's not only forgotten by next level but because it have fifty uses you could use it at every single Encounter along the way. Then if you really want for 18,000gp or so you can buy some armor spikes and add Furious to them which gives you the 11th level ability of Greater Rage.

So in other words, for about 30k anyone can obtain Greater Rage for every Encounter between levels. It just costs a Standard Action to use without the Instantaneous Rage Feat. Because 30k to steal more than an entire Class has to offer would be a little bit too much without at least requiring a Feat or Familiar tax.

Human Paragon: Want UMD or Ijutsu Focus for any class?

Take the Apprentice Feat out of Cityscape, it gives you two new Class Skills and an extra +2 Skill Points to invest in them or obtain a Skill Trick.

Dwarf Paragon: Full BAB ending with a Con Bonus, probably about as good as taking three more levels of Fighter.

Yep, I can't beat that one right there. gj.

Don't forget LA buyoff which has a tendency to be assumed allowed given that this is Char Op.

I don't know about that. A lot of people don't use it or ask for it, and the few that do tend to be in campaigns that are aimed towards giving a bit of LA forgiveness in the first place in.

It's just kind of one of those things, if used it's borked so generally it's not considered. Sort of like opening every suggestion with White Dragonspawn Abomination. There has been a nice push to appeal to what the poster wants and balance it within his game opposed to make it to break it. Which really is nice.

[Keldar]

Dwarf Paragon: Full BAB ending with a Con Bonus, probably about as good as taking three more levels of Fighter.

Yep, I can't beat that one right there. gj.

Tells you about the quality of the set.  Most aren't even up to Fighter snuff.

[Gray Lensman]

On a scale of 1 and would-I-give-up-a-caster-level-for-this? 1.

If you're looking for some houserules through, any campaign that offers reduced the LA should look into offering most of the Paragon Class Features for free to buff the PHB Races so they compete along side monster choices. Which I know may be a little country since people run reduced LA so they can play the monsters they never get to, but sometimes a certain race in the PHB may never get played because the local players just feel it's too insignificant to mechanical use. Like you've probably considered a dashing swordsmen once or twice before but why use the traditional Helf Bard when Helf sucks? Well now it could get an extra two bonus Feats, two assigned +2 Ability Bonuses, +2 Spot/Search, +3 Diplo/Gather, and an extra +2 on all Cha-Skills by siding with Human. Why it's almost worth +1 LA now.

In the group I am playing in now we gestalt the paragon classes (at no cost) into our characters and begin play at level 3 (1/2 elf and 1/2 Orc get their own plus whichever of the other they choose, ie. half-orc AND orc).  Makes playing something other than the base races less frequent and makes the 1/2 races a bit more interesting.  It also makes for some interesting effects like the fact that the elf conjuror I am now playing cast spell as a 5th level wizard at level 3   .

We also do things like max HP for 3 levels (if paragon gives larger HD than class then that is what you use).  We also never surprise 10 drunk orcs around the campfire, it's more like we get surprised by a 50 strong warband  .

YMMV

[Nifft]

I feel the base Paragon Classes were so bad, that I re-wrote them for my games.

[Gray Lensman]

I feel the base Paragon Classes were so bad, that I re-wrote them for my games.

I like what you did with most of them, especially the half elf and kobold.