Author Topic: Having trouble with subtle support-optimization in a high powered gestalt game  (Read 2680 times)

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4th level play by post, two DMs, three parties, and the DMs have plans to take this into high levels (from comments, I recognize that we'll eventually be dealing with Kyuss...)

The most important house rules, from a character building perspective, are:

1) Additional bonus feat at every level (!)
2) Heavy doses of wild magic, both arcane and divine, discouraging spellcasters
3) No ToB, no psionics - more for flavor than balance concerns, I believe
4) No homebrew, but nearly all official sources are valid, including web enhancement and Dragon magazine (with permission), and a few third party are allowed

The rest of my party is a Knight/Fighter, a Bard/Rogue, some kind of fightan man who I don't have a build on, and a Cleric/Divine Mind (secretly the co-DM's PC, intended to serve a healing role).  I'm an Incarnate/Factotum, currently invested in tripping (secondary tank, secondary damage dealer) and Handle Animal (I have a Warbeast Riding Dog and permission to apply Wild Cohort to it), and have already agreed with the two DMs that Cunning Surge was intended to be 1/round.

My issue is that, as the classes quickly show, the optimization level is pretty low.  The Cleric/Divine Mind has a lot of potential power but is a dedicated healer, and the other three are all mechanically unimpressive.  I'm a pretty good optimizer and statted my character out before I learned just how mechanically weak the rest of the party is, and so I toned things down a little (put off Wild Cohort, delayed Shape Soulmeld: Reaping Gauntlets, sword and board  instead of a ranseur, etc.) but I'd like ideas for creative ways to make the rest of the party shine brighter.

Neither DM seems to be much of an optimizer, so I'd rather avoid shocking them with just how strong some combos can be.  I'd much prefer to avoid prestige classes for now, and I'm less worried about making sure the rest of the party can shine at higher levels, so any suggestions that focus more on the 5-9 range are most appreciated.

Build notes: My feats are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Azure Expertise, Knowledge Devotion, and 3x Font of Inspiration (though note no Cunning Surge mega-novas), 18 Int and other stats all low-positive modifiers (+1s and +2s), Azurin race.  I'm committed to my riding dog long-term for RP reasons, but don't want to optimize her too heavily (she's already a Warbeast and will have Wild Cohort later.)


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Separated out, what I was considering:

There's really no way around the fact that dedicated tripping is going to at least equal the Knight for battlefield control, especially with all the bonuses I can start applying, but there's a handy way to avoid this: staying near the squishies and serving as a second line of defense, letting the knight have his day keeping the front line at bay.  As an added bonus, this will mostly be mobile things rather than the tough stuff, so I'm more likely to succeed on my trip checks.  Once they're down, the rogue will have a pretty easy time flanking and landing tons of sneak attacks, giving her a chance to shine, and I can look for the ability to apply other status effects with attacks to further the takedown potential.  I believe the fifth party member, the one whose build I'm unsure of, is archery-focused, so pretty much by default he has his own role.

The other option I was looking at is to branch out from my current tanking/control set into the one thing our party lacks: blasting.  A highly defensive artillery piece standing between the enemies and the rest of the back line would be entertaining and not step on anybody's toes, but I can't see a good way to go about it anytime soon - Incarnate is best taken straight, and there's no reason to drop Factotum before level 8 (and really with this campaign, probably 11).

Offline Nifft

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How are you getting "no Psionics" while the DMPC is half Divine Mind? That's like a Wookie on Tatooine.


Offline nijineko

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How are you getting "no Psionics" while the DMPC is half Divine Mind? That's like a Wookie on Tatooine.

Maybe it's just no PC psionics?

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How are you getting "no Psionics" while the DMPC is half Divine Mind? That's like a Wookie on Tatooine.

Hax, I presume.  It's a dedicated healer anyway, so that's exactly the right kind of DMPC to let somebody join the game for RPing, and I'm not inclined to rock the boat.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Rogue/Bard is a skills Face build, with more skills and more spells known and more party support stuff, than you.
Facto/Incarnate is a skills Not-Face build with int subbed dex stuff.

You can pick the classic wizard BFControl spells, with your oh so few picks.
It would make more tactical sense, for the Bard picks to takeover more of that than you.

Cleric has more options like that than you too, especially if No in combat healing is specifically known.
Can you have a solid team tactics discussion?
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline Nifft

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Separated out, what I was considering:

There's really no way around the fact that dedicated tripping is going to at least equal the Knight for battlefield control, especially with all the bonuses I can start applying, but there's a handy way to avoid this: staying near the squishies and serving as a second line of defense, letting the knight have his day keeping the front line at bay.  As an added bonus, this will mostly be mobile things rather than the tough stuff, so I'm more likely to succeed on my trip checks.  Once they're down, the rogue will have a pretty easy time flanking and landing tons of sneak attacks, giving her a chance to shine, and I can look for the ability to apply other status effects with attacks to further the takedown potential.  I believe the fifth party member, the one whose build I'm unsure of, is archery-focused, so pretty much by default he has his own role.

The other option I was looking at is to branch out from my current tanking/control set into the one thing our party lacks: blasting.  A highly defensive artillery piece standing between the enemies and the rest of the back line would be entertaining and not step on anybody's toes, but I can't see a good way to go about it anytime soon - Incarnate is best taken straight, and there's no reason to drop Factotum before level 8 (and really with this campaign, probably 11).

The main point of gestalting Factotum seems to be going full-caster on the other side, and using your Inspiration points to generate extra actions which get turned into spells. I would not personally use a Factotum for that (not when I could go Wizard // Psion and use Schism for extra actions), but some people like it.

You are not putting a full caster on the other side, so I would avoid Factotum.

Instead, consider this:

Binder // Warlock

From a flavor perspective, it's solid gold: you are Faust, and you have all the powers of Hell.

From an optimization perspective, you get Hellfire Warlock on one side and Naberious on the other, which is the gold standard for Warlock blasting.

As a mid-to-close blaster, you might also look at the Eldritch Glaive invocation, which allows you to transition from blasting at range to close-up pain. Or you might prefer Eldritch Claws.


Another way to go would be Incarnate // Scout (which gets you Dissolving Spittle + Skirmish damage), plus you can get some amazing skill bonuses with all the skill points + Incarnum skill boosters.


Finally, consider being an Incarnate // Druid who mostly uses [Reserve] feats instead of casting spells directly. Between Winter Blast / Fiery Burst / Storm Bolt, you can cover short-range damage pretty well, and with Summon Elemental + Minor Shapeshift you've got other support handled nicely.