Arsenic & Old Lace: The Poison Handbook Discussion

[Libertad]

Talk about errors/additions/revisions for the Poison Handbook here!

[akalsaris]

Thanks for a bunch for porting this over Libertad! It looks quite spiffy in its new location. 

Is it ever possible to share ownership of a handbook? I'm not sure when I'll ever get around to it, but I'd like to add page numbers for all the poisons at some point.

[Libertad]

You're welcome.  The handbook's size was intimidating at first, but it was so full of good ideas that it had to be preserved here.

I do not know about joint ownership, but I asked Prime32 and veekie about this (it would be a good idea if users could do a collaboration handbook).  I believe that editing privileges transfers over to the original author should they desire.  I think that this is the best option: I'm just the porter!

[veekie]

It is not possible for a post to be attributed to two posters. Collaboratives would need one person to update the top post, possibly while the discussion thread contains the temporary edits.

[Libertad]

Thanks for the info, veekie!

Akalsaris, if you need to insert stuff into the handbook, post them here and the section you want them in!

[Thurbane]

It's possible I missed it in the thread, but is Gehennan Morghuth Iron (A&EG) mentioned as a special material? The save is pathetically low, but it's a continual effect poison, and if the weapon is used to deliver a more potent venom, will call for 2 saves.

[darknighthg]

I really couldn't find the Stun Gas at the A&EG. Is it with another name?
btw... GREAT handbook.
I've been building a char based on the assassin's strengths (Poison, sneak attack, death attack) without beeign necesary an assassin or rogue. Something like wizard incantatrix, bard or artificer.
You should do a special mention to Shapechange (or it's psionic brother, Greater Metamorphosis) not only as a part of Alter Self. Because you can change to most of the creatures that have poisons to "spit" the raw material and also you can change from one to another with the same spell as a free action!
When I was thinking about this, I realized that it is not specified anywhere if you use your own HD or the creature's HD -when you polymorph/shapechange- to calculate the creature's special attack's DC. I know you retain your own HD when you use this spells, but you still are changing into the x-HD version of the creature. For example, I am a wizard level 10. If I polymorph into a  snake of 1 HD, the DC of the venom will it be 10 or 15?

[akalsaris]

Thanks for the feedback!

Stun Gas: My mistake, it's in Underdark Pg. 67.

Gehennan Morghuth Iron (A&EG): I overlooked this material! It's kind of weak even when it does hit, but like you said it's only 4K, and it would do double duty with other poison DC/effect boosters like assassination and whatnot. Definitely a good choice for a dedicated melee poison user.

Shapechange: I'm not really sure if poisons would stick around after changing or not, but I assume they would. It's certainly a cheap way to get a ton of high DC poisons (I'm looking at you, Balor!), though I do have to admit that I'd feel sheepish using Shapechange for such a mundane use as creating poisons 

The Assassin Who Isn't An Assassin: I did the same thing in a game actually! I went Cloistered Cleric 5/Darkstalker of Bhaal 1, which along with my feats gave sneak attack, death attack, and poisons without being a rogue or assassin at all. It was quite fun, and the first module had a series of 10 spike traps or something laced with black lotus venom that I gleefully harvested. Campaign didn't last long enough for me to use them, sadly.

[darknighthg]

I didn't like the Gehennan Morghuth iron not because of the DC, but the -1 to attack and damage rolls (always hurts when you have regular BAB)
Anyway. There's a feat in the Dragon magazine #322 (page 37), Deep poisoning, that let you increase the DC of poisons at the cost of 1d6 of SA for each +1 (max +5). AWESOME feat for boosting poison DC.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3329.0
here's the thread of my char. I took the idea of the cleric darkstalker and seems interesting. Pass when you can

[Maat Mons]

Shapechange: I'm not really sure if poisons would stick around after changing or not, but I assume they would.

I'd think poison would count as a body part.  Shapechange and greater metamorphosis both specify that body parts separated from you do not revert.  I'm sure that's why darknighthg cited those two. 

[123456789blaaa]

Have you considered adding the poison feats from serpent kingdoms/savage species/lords of madness?

Spit Poison ( Lords of Madness):Prerequisites are Ability Focus (MM) (poison) , Base attack bonus +3, DEX 17, and a poison special attack delivered by bite. The feat allows you to (As a standard action) spit your poison at a single target within 30 feet. The creature must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit with its poison. The poison affects a hit target just as if the creature had succeeded on a bite attack. The poison is somewhat weakened when spit out, and the poison's save DC is reduced by 2.

Virulent Poison (Savage Species): The prerequisite is a poison attack as an extraordinary ability. The feat allows you to add +2 to the DC of your poison.

Deadly Spittle (Serpent Kingdoms):Prerequisites are spit venom OR spit attack OR spittle attack The feat allows you to spray your spit in a 15-foot cone (I'm unsure if this feat allows you to spray your poison in the cone too).

Deadly Poison (Savage Species): Prerequisites are Con 19, poison attack, Virulent Poison. The feat allows you to double the secondary damage of your poison

 They could be nice for an animal companion at least.

[zook1shoe]

Zhentarim Skymage is from Lords of Darkness, not Champions of Ruin

[Libertad]

Zhentarim Skymage is from Lords of Darkness, not Champions of Ruin

Changed!

[Pluto]

I'm seeing some references to Dragon Magazine material, so would more be appropriate?
DR#322 has a few poisoning abilities that might be notable: the Deep Poisoning feat (trade sneak attack dice for DC boosts on a poisoned attack) and Magic Poisons (rules for making poisons with metamagic-like effects, at a higher price).

[zook1shoe]

I'm surprised the poison assassin from Dragon 312 isn't here. I actually just started playing one, so it should be fun!

[Maat Mons]

Barber (Dragon 321, p84) gives poison use, a bonus to saves against poison, and increased effectiveness to poisons if you both create and apply them. 

[Piggy Knowles]

The guide has Goodbye Kiss (poison from Complete Scoundrel) listed as initial damage fatigue, secondary damage exhausted.  Unless there is an errata, this is incorrect - it's exhausted both times, and failing both saves makes you unconscious.  That's actually quite a bit better than fatigued -> exhausted.  Here's the text from CSco:

"A subject who fails either the initial or the secondary save becomes exhausted for 1 hour.  Failing both saves renders the target unconscious for 1 hour instead."

[Nunkuruji]

This may be a bit contentious to how one may wish to interpret Minor Creation

Specifically, for the purpose of poison creation

Craft (poisonmaking) as per Complete Adventurer p.98

Amount: To figure out how much poison you are able to create in a week, make a Craft (poisonmaking) check at the end of the week. If the check is successful, multiply the check result by the DC for the check. That result is how many gp worth of poison you created that week. When your total gp created equals or exceeds the market price of one dose of the poison, that dose is finished.


Minor Creation
You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item.

First, let's reasonably assume that the craft time is replaced with the Minor Creation cast time of 1 minute.

Second, clearly the spell produces the raw poisonous plant material.

Now, what is important is what the skill check is to create the complex item, as per CAdv:

Check Result x DC = Progress towards market price (1 dose, and assuming Check >= DC)

Therefore, to actually produce 1 dose of usable Black Lotus Extract during casting requires

4500 gp / DC 35 = Skill Check of 129


Applied across the available poisons, it's a much more stratified progression of Craft difficulty. As such, as Shaper 1 isn't easily murdering the world with Black Lotus Extract