[Discussio]JaronKs tier fix option 1-PB Mods and/or free LA as tier fix

[lans]

Can PB modifications based on tiers truly be used to shore up tier differences?
Would additonal points based on MADness of the class be required? Ie monks get 10 more points than the fighter.

Is a spread of

Tier 1s get 24 point buy. Tier 2s get 28 point buy. Tier 3s get 32 point buy. Tier 4s get 36 point buy. Tier 5s get 40 point buy. Tier 6s get 44 point buy.

Enough? Should Tier 6s just get all 18s? What sort of restrictions on classes should apply to keep the enhanced PB/LA?

If Classes are getting free LA how much should they get?

[veekie]

Depends on the tier gap you're referring to.
Point buy variations and free LA generally make up the gap from T5 to T4. With a sufficiently large bonus, you can bring a T6 to T4. Higher tiers than that do not really depend on such things for their core competencies unless you actually have a sufficiently severe ability/level tax that they fail to be useful at all.

[LordBlades]

What veekie said. You can give a tier 4-6 all 18 and it still can't compete with a 16 pb caster

[RobbyPants]

There are two serious limitations to this approach:

1) Tiers only represent the potential for a class, and even then, tier power isn't consistent across all levels. For example: non-casters are actually pretty solid at low levels, and wizards and sorcerers have more serious limitations. A player running a blaster wizard is going to function differently than one who specializes in Conjuration, despite them both having written "wizard" on their character sheet.

2) This in no way takes into account multiclassing. PBs and LAs are taken at character creation; multiclassing happens afterward.

[JaronK]

Honestly, it was an off the cuff suggestion... and I'm not sure it was a very good one.  It's okay for the T3-6 range, but in general that particular solution only works for a very specific optimization level.

And Robby's criticisms are accurate as well.

JaronK

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Point Buy can be compared to buffing spells,
and other stat mods based on spells.
1 time application vs. 1 spell a day.
It ain't even close.

Fighter bragging: I get +10 to Strength !
Wizard not bragging: I get Polymorph ; and ...

[lans]

There are two serious limitations to this approach:

1) Tiers only represent the potential for a class, and even then, tier power isn't consistent across all levels. For example: non-casters are actually pretty solid at low levels, and wizards and sorcerers have more serious limitations. A player running a blaster wizard is going to function differently than one who specializes in Conjuration, despite them both having written "wizard" on their character sheet.

I'm presuming  that if this is being applied then the players are at least fairly competent at their classes.

2) This in no way takes into account multiclassing. PBs and LAs are taken at character creation; multiclassing happens afterward.

I figure the multiclassing penalties can be modified to lower the PB or LA. Working things out with the DM ahead of time might be a better option, but I figure some flexability in character progression would be desirable.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Expert + free Phrenic template (LA+2) =

Cloistered Cleric nope, not even.
Bard near maybe, but Bard has lots more options.
Ranger while a different direction of build, might be close.

[RobbyPants]

There are two serious limitations to this approach:

1) Tiers only represent the potential for a class, and even then, tier power isn't consistent across all levels. For example: non-casters are actually pretty solid at low levels, and wizards and sorcerers have more serious limitations. A player running a blaster wizard is going to function differently than one who specializes in Conjuration, despite them both having written "wizard" on their character sheet.

I'm presuming  that if this is being applied then the players are at least fairly competent at their classes.

2) This in no way takes into account multiclassing. PBs and LAs are taken at character creation; multiclassing happens afterward.

I figure the multiclassing penalties can be modified to lower the PB or LA. Working things out with the DM ahead of time might be a better option, but I figure some flexability in character progression would be desirable.

Yeah. The only way you could pull that off would be to work with the DM ahead of time and discuss things. The problem is, it can be hard to see just by the character sheet alone how a character will contribute. All a caster has to do is prepare bad spells or cast their good spells at the wrong time to drop down several tiers. Basically, putting in charGen kludges to fix in-game problems is either a potential fix or a potential problem (or both), and it's not easy to predict at charGen alone.

That being said, something like a low tier gestalt might work better if it's applied on a level-by-level basis. For example, you might allow a fighter to play a gestalt fighter//monk instead. If he later takes a level of wizard, he just gets wizard that level; not a wizard//monk gestalt (or whatever). That fixes the multiclassing issue, but it still doesn't address the power-potential issue (poorly played high tier characters).