Being Everything: Eggynack's Comprehensive Druid Handbook Discussion

[eggynack]

Here is where discussion of my druid handbook shall go.

[IlPazzo]

I have not read the whole guide yet, but at first glance I think you missed and should mention, either on the ability scores section or directly on aberration wild shape, that a Druid build particularly focused on that might wanna give more importance to CHA to boost DCs of (sup).

[eggynack]

I have not read the whole guide yet, but at first glance I think you missed and should mention, either on the ability scores section or directly on aberration wild shape, that a Druid build particularly focused on that might wanna give more importance to CHA to boost DCs of (sup).

My aberration wild shape list doesn't even really use supernatural abilities, focusing instead on the not especially charisma dependent pool of extraordinary abilities. I can only think of like one form I have listed that'd actually care. I mean, there's room for it if there's this pile of forms that I forgot about with big charisma dependency, but a note for nothing but the cloaker lord seems like a rather irrelevant note.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

A) Google docs
B) You are missing animal companions. It's a common mistake though. I had to go through like 5 threads before I felt comfortable I had all of them. I'm not sure if I'm going to forcefully obsolete our existing animal companion handbook, or if I will just pressure its OP to update.

[eggynack]

A) Google docs

True. Not ideal, but I think it works well enough.

B) You are missing animal companions. It's a common mistake though. I had to go through like 5 threads before I felt comfortable I had all of them. I'm not sure if I'm going to forcefully obsolete our existing animal companion handbook, or if I will just pressure its OP to update.

Not sure which I'm missing. I think I looked at all of them, and just didn't include everything I saw, cause such is the way of things. My search went as deep as those weird dragon magazine dinosaurs, but those pretty much all suck.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

No they don't. Not all of them. And I don't see them at the bottom of this long word document.

[eggynack]

No they don't. Not all of them. And I don't see them at the bottom of this long word document.

Which of them don't suck? I have at least one, the pteranodon, as a wild shape form, cause that flight speed is kinda interesting, but it doesn't seem like much as a companion. I'ma continue through the list, cause whatever. Compsognathus seems obviously awful, as does the rhamphorhychus, stuck in that unenviable position of lacking both offensively and defensively. Pteranodon's already been covered a bit, but I'll continue by pointing out that the offense, generally the most critical factor on a companion, is lacking in comparison to both the dire eagle and the sailsnake, and even as a defensive companion you'd be better off with the dire bat's vision mode access and, y'know, generally better defenses. I guess you get that fast speed, but I don't think that's worth a companion, cause it's not as easy to parlay that into power as it is with a wild shape form, which is the reasoning behind the initial claim. And the dimetrodon, meanwhile, is clearly awful on every level.

Then you move on to 10th's. The pachycephalosaurus is mediocre in all ways, with a not awful attack backed up by no noteworthy features. For reference, compare to the fiend folio's fhorge, which outclasses that creature in most ways, without even hanging out on the top tier at that level. The next creature is the heliocoprion, and this might be the closest you get to listable. Not because it's good, but rather because it's really frigging similar to a huge shark, a creature I have listed mostly because of the low density of aquatic options otherwise. Seems marginally better in most ways, though not especially worth playing. Then there's the parasaurlophus, which just seems to have no notable qualities, though the swim speed is kinda nice to have. Finally, because I somehow doubt there's all that much value in including the companions above 20 (I barely see much point in including companions once 9th's are around), you have the stegosaurus, a creature that's going after the burly meatsack role in a world where the dire tortoise was doing that job better six levels ago, and which is largely outmoded by the dire elephant. It's probably the second closest to deserving entry, but it's not an especially useful companion, because you really want your defensive companions with something interesting to offer.

So, that's what I see as the viability of those companions. It's not all that good, and the best shot is basically as a dragon magazine stowaway on a crappy core aquatic companion, but it's something. The stegosaurus is almost there on its own merits, but the whole setup is kinda mediocre, with the special abilities just not doing much. It's possible I'm missing something here, because I've done so in the past, but my read through indicates that my evaluation of the companions was rather spot on. Just a big pile of kinda over leveled companions, failing to match up against options from far less obscure sources. In any case, if you have something that you think deserves inclusion, the best move might just be to tell me what it is. There's no need for this weird back and forth where you point vaguely towards some arbitrary thing I may or may not be missing.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Which of them don't suck?

Many of the ones you aren't listing.

[eggynack]

Many of the ones you aren't listing.

What are you talking about? I listed every single creature that's available as an animal companion before level 21 that comes out of that magazine. As far as I can tell, there are eleven creatures in that section, three over 20, and I had all eight of the pertinent creatures in that post. If I'm not listing a creature in my handbook that you think I should have, can you please just give me the name of the creature, a citation for its location, and if you feel the creature doesn't speak for itself, the reason why you think it deserves inclusion? These one line posts that give no information about what, if anything, is missing, just seem counterproductive.

[Snowbluff]

Oh goody, it's nice to see that this is going well. I made an arcane heirophant for a campaign today.

Hi, plzbreakmycampaign! :3

Eggy, I'd like to point something about the save DCs of breath weapons. The save of supernatural abilities are extrapolated from the stats of the creatures, as far as I can tell. For example, the save DC of the Adamantine dragon's breath shouldn't be 16, but 10 + your HD + your con mod (actually the dragon's because your wildshaped).

As for the hold monster effect of adamantine dragons, the Oceanus Dragon from draconomicon gets a daze breath, which has the benefit of not being a [mind affecting] attack, and that few things are immune to that type of effect.

[Arz]

Glad you noticed hierophant, since most forget how awesome it is but you missed Faith Scion which is like legacy champion without the level loss.

[SorO_Lost]

Speaking of, some stuff I mentioned before since you're listing bad stuff (ie all the red entries) and your calling your Handbook "comprehensive".

Animal Companion Feats
Feral Animal Companion (FR:CoR), Spider Companion (DotU), Totem Companion (EB:ECS), & Vermin Companion.

Initiate Feats
PGtF: Bane, Cyric, Gond, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, & Mystra.
DM: Aasterinian, Amaunator, Anhur, Arvoreen, Astilabor, Bahamut, Baravar Cloakshadow, Eilistraee, Falazure, Garyx, Ghaunadaur, Hlal, Horus, Io, Kossuth, Lendys, Loviatar, Milil, Nobanion, Shar, Tchazzar, of the Holy Realm, Tamara, Tiamat, Torn, Tymora, Tyr, & Varae.

Wild Shape Feats
Primeval Wild Shape (FB), Proportionate Wild Shape (MotW), & Speaking Wild Shape (CC).

I did see you got around to adding Blindsight from MotW, that's one down and forty some odd remaining. It's a little harder to dig through your Spells & PrCs, specially with D&DTools.pw going down here recently. But when another mirror goes up you should probably check those lists since you decided to review every single Spell for completeness.

[eggynack]

Speaking of, some stuff I mentioned before since you're listing bad stuff (ie all the red entries) and your calling your Handbook "comprehensive".

I am listing bad stuff, but I'm definitely not listing all bad stuff. Just the bad stuff that people think is unbad. Like, I have beastmaster because people are always making threads about how they want in on that kinda cool sounding class, often not knowing about the awful advancement on companions past first level, alongside the better known lack of spell advancement. I mean, I do have some red things in there for other reasons, like that I find them interesting, or that they're part of a relatively small group of things, or if they'e kinda unique, but there typically does need to be some sort of reason beyond just the fact that its technically a druid thing. My thinking is that too much uninteresting stuff would flood out the interesting stuff.

Initiate Feats
PGtF: Bane, Cyric, Gond, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, & Mystra.
DM: Aasterinian, Amaunator, Anhur, Arvoreen, Astilabor, Bahamut, Baravar Cloakshadow, Eilistraee, Falazure, Garyx, Ghaunadaur, Hlal, Horus, Io, Kossuth, Lendys, Loviatar, Milil, Nobanion, Shar, Tchazzar, of the Holy Realm, Tamara, Tiamat, Torn, Tymora, Tyr, & Varae.

Again, these are not druid feats. Unless I've missed one that happens to not require cleric levels, they all seem to require cleric levels, or some other thing that druids don't really have access to.

I did see you got around to adding Blindsight from MotW, that's one down and forty some odd remaining.

That was actually there before.

It's a little harder to dig through your Spells & PrCs, specially with D&DTools.pw going down here recently. But when another mirror goes up you should probably check those lists since you decided to review every single Spell for completeness.

I definitely do not have every spell. I don't even have every core spell. Though, if by "review" you mean, "Give consideration to for entry status," then I'm pretty sure I have, in fact, looked at every druid spell in existence (at least anything not homebrew or third party) in order to construct my spell list.

[SorO_Lost]

I am listing bad stuff, but I'm definitely not listing all bad stuff. Just the bad stuff that people think is unbad. Like, I have beastmaster because people are always making threads about how they want in on that kinda cool sounding class, often not knowing about the awful advancement on companions past first level, alongside the better known lack of spell advancement. I mean, I do have some red things in there for other reasons, like that I find them interesting, or that they're part of a relatively small group of things, or if they'e kinda unique, but there typically does need to be some sort of reason beyond just the fact that its technically a druid thing. My thinking is that too much uninteresting stuff would flood out the interesting stuff.

That's actually kind of sound.

Again, these are not druid feats. Unless I've missed one that happens to not require cleric levels, they all seem to require cleric levels, or some other thing that druids don't really have access to.

I used google cache to pull the list since I didn't believe there was nearly fifty of them out there but the Feats are unclickable.

[Endarire]

@eggynack
Arcane Hierophant with early entry tricks (like Druid2/Conjurer1/Druid+4/AH+X) seems spiffier than you credited it.  Abrupt Jaunt, Augment Summoning, and casting from another list (including from Wiz items) is powerful, though whether it's worth 2 feats (Alternative Source Spell & Practiced Spellcaster) and a Wizard level is debatable.  It's better at later levels, and something worth more consideration if you start at level 11+.

Also, to my present understanding, Blink Dogs can fly and move through walls via blink since they're incorporeal.