Help with some char concepts/builds

[darknighthg]

I'm trying to build some chars and see which one I prefer to use (the others will be used in a future campaign).
Level 13 to 20. The ability scores are random (7x4d6), no dragon magazines, no unfinished savage progressions, no leadership, no flaws, no "custom" magic items, no web enhacement, limited to the books listed below, no "by RAW, I destroy the world"/punpun/infinite wishes/gate abuse/etc. If I play wizard it must be speciallized. I'm trying to do the character playable, enjoyable and as less debatable as possible.

-Books allowed

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The Arms and Equipment Guide
Book of Exalted Deads
Book of Vile Darkness (3.0)
Complete arcane
Complete Divine
Comple Adventurer
Complete Warrior
Dungeon Master’s Guide
Dungeon Master’s Guide 2
Draconomicon (not sure if it’s 3.0 or 3.5)
Eberron Campaign Setting
Epic Level Handbook (3.0)
Fiend Folio (3.0)
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Libris mortis
Magic Item Compendium
Magic of Faerun
Monster Manual 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5
Spell Compendium
Player’s Guide to Faerun
Player’s Handbook
Player’s Handbook 2
Savage Species (3.0, sometimes we use it)
Serpent Kingdoms (no sharruk xD)
Tome of Battle: Book of the Nine Swords
Unaproachable East
Unearthed arcane
Weapons of Legacy

By now, I have 4 ideas:

-The Vampire:

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The idea is to make it a "vampire lord" (not the template), with vampire bodyguards that fight for me. For this I'd need 2 things:
First: max Cha to max out the HD of vampires I can control. I'm getting at least one level on the Master Vampire (libris mortis) to add Cha x2 to the HD of vampires i can control.
So probably I should get a class that benefits from a high Cha score.
Second: I need a way to use my blood drain to convert my enemies into vampires. This can be done by getting a HIGH grapple check (maybe reaping mauler, barbarian, wizard's fearsome grapple,
psionic Iron grip) or by droping them unable to resist it (domination, paralyzing them, poison, etc). Also some defensive abilities would be good. Something like Hide in Plain Sight, evasion, etc.

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-The incantatrix:

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Now... i have plenty of options for this one... still i still didn't decided which one's the best. The Idea is to have shapechange+superior invisibility+more buffs persisted to be 24hs. Also have the highest caster level
possible to avoid dispelling (theorically over CL 30 isn't dispelable, unless they are extremly focused on dispeling)

>Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Red wizard 5:

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the goods:Full CL (+5)... up to CL 40 with simulacrum only (can't give people the tattoo till 7). Circle: 5 members. Spell power +2. Cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect, instant metamagic 2/day, five 9th level spells,
-1 to metamagic level. +6 metamagic feats

The odds: can't make tattoo's, 3 prohibited schools, no way to get a high spellcraft check (when I say high... I'm saying high enought to persist a level 9 spell), when shapechanged it loses all features from red wizard (tecnically if the CL is already 40 it stays because it's an effect, not a feature) incluiding the +5 to spellcasting class.

>Wizard 5/Incantatrix 8/Exemplar 1/Red Wizard 7

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the goods: same as the first, but no second instant metamagic, 1 less 9th level spell and no -1 to metamagic level, 1 less metamagic feat. Can create tattoo's, can take 10 and has +4 to spellcraft. Spell power +3

the odds: no second instant metamagic, 1 less 9th level spell and no -1 to metamagic level

>Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Exemplar 1/Archmage 4/Red Wizard 7
the goods: up to CL 40,Can create tattoo's, can take 10 and has +4 to spellcraft. 4 High arcanas. cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect. +3 metamagic feats. Circle: 5 members. Spell power +3

the odds: no instant metamagic, 3 prohibited schools, no -1 to metamagic level. when shapechanged it loses all features from red wizard (tecnically if the CL is already 40 it stays because it's an effect, not a feature) incluiding the +7 to spellcasting class

>Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Exemplar 1/Archmage 1/Red Wizard 10

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the goods: up to CL 40,Can create tattoo's, can take 10 and has +4 to spellcraft. 1 High arcana. cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect. +3 metamagic feats. Circle: 9 members. Spell power +5

the odds: no instant metamagic, 3 prohibited schools, no -1 to metamagic level. when shapechanged it loses all features from red wizard (tecnically if the CL is already 40 it stays because it's an effect, not a feature) incluiding the +7 to spellcasting class. Only one High Arcana

>Wu jen 5/Bard 2/Incantatrix 3/Sublime Chord 5/Archmage 5

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the goods: spells from 3 lists: Bard (Improvisation, Zone of silence, lv 6 Otto's irresistible dance), Wu jen (Giant size, Body outside body), Wizard (Celerity, Rope trick, Shapechange). 5 High arcana or +5 to CL.
Song of arcane power. Improvisation's boost (about +10, total 40 "luck points") is quiet nice for metamagic effect,
and body oustide body gives me nigh-finite uses of cooperative metamagic and metamagic effect.
Watchful spirit, +2 metamagic feats. Only 1 prohibited school. Spell secret for a spell level 2. Bardic music 4/day. Bardic Knowledge (7+Int to the check). cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect.

the odds: CL 18 for wu jen and sublime chord and 12 for bard (without practiced spellcaster, high arcana or song of arcane power). Only 2 ninth level spell.

>Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Bard 2/Exemplar 1/Sublime chord 2/Red wizard 7

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the goods: Cl 40. Can create tattoo's, can take 10 and has +4 to spellcraft. spells from 2 lists: Bard (Improvisation, Zone of silence, lv 6 Otto's irresistible dance), Wizard (Celerity, Rope trick, Shapechange).
Song of arcane power. Improvisation's boost (about +22, total 88 "luck points") is quiet nice for metamagic effect, and body oustide body gives me nigh-finite uses of cooperative metamagic and metamagic effect.
+2 metamagic feats. Bardic music 3/day. Bardic Knowledge (4+Int to the check). cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect. Circle: 5 members. Spell power +3

the odds: Only 1 ninth level spell. The bardic knowledge check is really low.

>Bard 7/Incantatrix 3/Exemplar 1/Sublime Chord 2/Red wizard 7

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the goods: CL 40. Can create tattoo's, can take 10 and has +4 to spellcraft. spells from 2 lists: Bard (Improvisation, Zone of silence, lv 6 Otto's irresistible dance), Wizard (Celerity, Rope trick, Shapechange).
Song of arcane power. Improvisation's boost (about +22, total 88 "luck points") is quiet nice for metamagic effect, and body oustide body gives me nigh-finite uses of cooperative metamagic and metamagic effect.
+2 metamagic feats. Bardic music 7/day. Bardic Knowledge (9+Int to the check). cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect. Circle: 5 members. Spell power +3

the odds: Only 1 ninth level spell. The bardic knowledge check is really low. 2 prohibited schools. when shapechanged it loses all features from
red wizard (tecnically if the CL is already 40 it stays because it's an effect, not a feature) incluiding the +7 to spellcasting class.

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-The sneaky:

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The main idea is to replicate a rogue strengths without beeing a rogue (and also some of an assassin too), like Sneak Attack, Hide in Plain Sight, Poison creation/use, some sort of death attack, and if possible,
sneaking (I mean max "move silently"/Zone of silence/similiar and Hide)  , evasion, uncanny dodge and trapfinding (in that order). Like the incantatrix... I have a few options:

>Bard 10/Assassin 10:

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the goods: the most basic. BAB +15. Hide in plain sight . Access to Zone of silence (also really helpful), Improvisation (up to 20 "luck points") and Glibness. Bardic Knowledge (10+int). Bardic music (not much useful except for suggestion).
Poison use. Death attack (DC 10+Int base).
Sneak attack +5d6. Improved uncanny dodge. Assassin spells up to level 4.

the odds: Doesn't have access to Polymorph and other useful wizard spells. Can't take 10 when under stress or distracted. No evasion.

>Bard 5/Assassin 9/Teflamman shadowlord 6

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the goods: BAB +15. Hide in plain sight . Access to Improvisation (up to 10 "luck points"). Bardic music. Poison use. Death attack (DC 15+Int base).
Sneak attack +5d6. Improved uncanny dodge. Assassin spells up to level 4. Shadow pounce. Shadow walk. Avoid death when in the shadows (with a check)

the odds: Doesn't have access to Zone of Silence, Polymorph, or other wizard or bard spells over 2nd. Can't take 10 when under stress or distracted. No evasion.

>Bard 5/Shadowdancer 2/Assassin 7/Teflamman shadowlord 6

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the goods: BAB +15. Hide in plain sight . Access to Improvisation (up to 10 "luck points"). Bardic music. Poison use. Death attack (DC 23+Int base).
Sneak attack +4d6. Improved uncanny dodge. Assassin spells up to level 4. Shadow pounce. Shadow walk. Avoid death when in the shadows (with a check). Evasion.

The odds: Doesn't have access to Zone of Silence, Glibness, Polymorph, or other wizard or bard spells over 2nd. Can't take 10 when under stress or distracted. One less SA dice than the previous one.

>Bard 7/Assassin 9/Exemplar 1/Incantatrix 3

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the goods: BAB +14. Hide in plain sight .  Access to Improvisation (up to 20 "luck points") and Glibness. Bardic music 8/day. Poison use. Death attack (DC 19+Int base).
Sneak attack +5d6. Improved uncanny dodge. Assassin spells up to level 4. Can take 10 in 1+INT skills (probably Hide and move silently) and +4 bonus to one. Cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect.

The odds: Doesn't have access to Zone of Silence, neither Polymorph, or other wizard spells. No evasion, shadow pounce, shadow walk or avoid death.

>Bard 7/Shadowdancer 2/Sublime Chord 7/Exemplar 1/Incantatrix 3

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the goods: BAB +14. Hide in plain Sight. Access to Improvisation (up to 34 "luck points"), Glibness, Polymorph, Shapechange, and other wizard or bard spells up to 9 (CL 17-21 not that bad). Bardic music 8/day. Uncanny dodge.
Song of arcane power. Can take 10 in 1+INT skills (probably Hide and move silently) and +4 bonus to one. Cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect. Bardic knowledge (9+int to the check).

the odds: Doesn't have poison use, IMPROVED uncanny dodge, death attack or SA.

>Artificer 20 (roguish mode)

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the goods: BAB +15. Access to almost any spell via scrolls, wands and staffs. Quick access to level 4 or lower spells by paying a low XP cost. LOTS of item creation feats, which gives me easy access to almost any magic item.
Access to SA, Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, some kind of Death Attack, Greater invisibility and some others via shapechange. Homunuculus for a permanent flanking-buddy. +5 free feats to select among metamagic feats and some creation/item-using feats.
Trapfinding. Easy poison Creation via Shapechange, polymorph, minor/mayor creation, summon monster/natural ally/undead, crafting, planar binding, etc.

the odds: Doesn't have SA, Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, Poison use, Death attack by it's own. Hide and MS are cross-class skills. Gold dependant. Can't take 10 when under stress or distracted (for skills other than UMD).

>Artificer 17/Shadowdancer 2/Exemplar 1

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the goods:BAB +15. Access to almost any spell via scrolls, wands and staffs. Quick access to level 4 or lower spells by paying a low XP cost. LOTS of item creation feats, which gives me easy access to almost any magic item.
Access to SA, some kind of Death Attack, Greater invisibility and some others via shapechange. Homunuculus for a permanent flanking-buddy. +4 free feats to select among metamagic feats and some creation/item-using feats.
Trapfinding. Can take 10 when under stress or distracted on UMD and 1+INT skills. Evasion and Hide in Plain Sight. Can get Hide and MS as class skills at level 10 (need Able learner to not pay 2 points per rank after that)
Easy poison Creation via Shapechange, polymorph, minor/mayor creation, summon monster/natural ally/undead, crafting, planar binding, etc.

the odds: Doesn't have SA, Poison use, Death attack by it's own. Hide and MS are cross-class skills. Gold dependant. 12000 less XP creation reserve, 3 less CL and one less feat than the other option.

>Cleric 15/Darkstalker of Bhaal 5 (this is allowed, even if it's from a DrM):

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the goods: BAB +15. Access to Cleric spells up to 9th. Death domain and another domain (Evil, Destruction, Hate, Law). Turn Undead. DMM access. SA +2d6.
Death attack (DC 20+Cha). Bloodthirst (DC 16+Wis). Last breath of Bhaal. It's a nice flavor to worship the God of Assassination

the odds: Not full domain power for death (15d6), Hide and MS are cross-class till getting into DoB. No HiPS, SA, posion use, or other aptitudes. And this time I don't have Shapechange on the list unless I get Planar touchstones (don't know if allowed) or Domain Draught.

Ways to get:

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-SA: Assassination aptitude (probably not allowed), Deadly Precision aptitude, Polymorph into Babau or Rakshasa Naztharune, Assassin's stance.
-Poison use: Shapechange into Poison dusk lizardfolk. Beeign a warforged or polymorphed into construct is some kind of poison use.
-Death Attack: Finger of death.
-HiPS: Rakshasa Naztharune (I love this guy)
-Evasion: Ring of Evasion
-Posion Creation: Shapechange, polymorph, minor/mayor creation, summon monster/natural ally/undead, crafting, planar binding, etc.

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The last one... well... I really don't remember now : P ... but I'm sure there was another idea.
Any suggestions about items, build changes, spells, powers, aptitudes, feats, PrC's, etc. will be useful (all among the books allowed).
Well... this is all for now. I know there are some mistakes or things to change in the things I wrote, I'll be changing them during the week. Also I'll try to order it better for it to be easier to read.

BTW... I'm planning to write the Vampire, Incantatrix and Shapechange Handbooks. Also Assassin's and Sublime Chord's if they are not written yet. I need the permission of an admin/mod to add them to the list? Any tips for writting them will be heard.

[SleepyShadow]

A few things that come to mind:


- Vampires have a hefty LA. I'm not sure it would be wise to play one. You could easily play a Necropolitan Enchanter or Conjurer if having large amounts of disposable minions is what you're after while still maintaining the undead flavor.

- What about Wizard 5/Incantrix 10/Archmage 5?

- I love stealthy characters, personally. I saw that you are allowed Tome of Battle, so I would ask your DM if you could use the Shadow Jaunt maneuver to qualify for Telflammar Shadowlord. If so, you could do Fighter 2/Swordsage 5/Telflammar Shadowlord 6/Shadow Sun Ninja 7.

[darknighthg]

1) I prefer vampires over that option because: a) They can control "immune to mind-affecting" creatures, which include spellcasters with Mind-blank (that has 24 hs duration) and characters with Third eye Conceal. And b) There minions are vampires too. I know it's hard to play a +8 LA PC, but when you are level 16+ (or even less; actually 2 less levels for each point of Cha modifier if you're going Master Vampire) you can control a PC/NPC of your ECL level. And when you take control of him, you are actually getting control over a creature with your ECL+8 . Also, each guy you control (or for each guy you guy control) you get one dominate or slam with 2 negative levels (-2 to saves ftw) making it easier to get more slaves into your team. It has it's odds too, I know. You have to make sure not to kill guys with your slam, you have to make sure your later slave is the one making slaves so you don't loose control over a group of vampires, and probably no sane DM will allow you to conquer the world this way xD. But always liked the idea of playing it, but I couldn't because of the ECL 13+.

2) It's kinda the basic idea, I'll add it later. The odds of it would be the regular CL and the lack of ways to improve Spellcraft really high and take 10 on it. Still, it's a good idea.

3) I'm not sure if he's going to allow it. I'll have to ask. Also I played SSN and didn't like it so much. I didn't see it doing something really useful till level 10... and that was giving a hell of negative levels to turn into a sunny vampire, becoming a NPC (quiet nice ending for a campaign, and a better start for another )

[SleepyShadow]

- Well, since you are set on a vampire, I'd suggest looking into the Lifedrinker PrC from BoVD. A combination of that and Master Vampire would be quite terrifying.

- Another thought is to go Sorcerer 6/Prestige Bard 1/Sand Shaper 1/Incantrix 10/Arcane Devotee 2. Quite a lot of spells known that way 

- Personally I thoroughly enjoyed all of the SSN abilities except the 10th level one when I played it, but ah well. Something else you could do is either Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Shadowbane Stalker 10/Sacred Exorcist 4 or Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3/Invisible Blade 5/Nightsong Enforcer 10.

[darknighthg]

1) Interesting PrC. Unfortunatly is more for a NPC than a PC. You are level 13 when you start beeing a vampire. Suppose you only take 1 level in Master vampire just to get the "more minions" ability. You have 6 levels left to hit 20 (when the non-epic campaigns are usually capped). Since it doesn't advance spellcasting, you'll get spells up to 3rd level, that can't explod the potential of the lifedrinker abilities. It's more likely to be a gestalt or NPC. Being gestalt you get 12 levels of a casting class, so a maximized Desintegrate or a heighten Bestow curse are something to be afraid of. On the other hand an NPC vampire only gets +2 CR for beeing vampire. If you count each class level as +1 CR you have 18 class HD, 10 from the lifedrinker, 1 from the Master vampire, and 7 from the spellcasting class. 4th level spell aren't all that good to match the previous examples, but with 18d12, you're still hard enought.

2) Unfortunately Sand shaper is outside of the books allowed. And i'm not getting the idea of prestige bard and arcane devotee 

3) Maybe you know a way to use them that I don't
The shadowbane stalker could be a good idea. Probably I'll add it when I have time. The odd of would be to be good xD (no poisons, death attack, etc.)

[SleepyShadow]

The Prestige Bard adds the bard spell list to your spells known, and Arcane Devotee adds the spell list of your chosen domain to your spells known. Since the build's chasis is a sorcerer, having such a large list of spells known to cast spontaneously can be quite effective.

[darknighthg]

I didn't see that at the Arcane Devotee description. Are you sure you are not talking about the Arcane Disciple feat?
The prestige bard was a good idea but due to the fact that it changes the regular bard, it probably won't be allowed. It's like playing gestalt in a non gestalt campaign

[SleepyShadow]

Ah well, that's what I get for rambling on about something without having looked it up in a year. You are indeed correct, the Devotee does not give a domain.

Oh well. When in doubt, play an artificer