Author Topic: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.  (Read 5748 times)

Offline Amechra

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I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« on: February 13, 2012, 11:36:38 PM »
You know the Weapon Aptitude class feature of a Warblade?

Well...

It specifically calls out feats that affect a single weapon; normally, it's taken to mean that you can swap Weapon Focus, and so on and so forth.

But hold on a sec... Ancestral Relic is a feat, that specifies a single weapon (OK, not only weapons, but that is what Improvised Weaponry is for)...

So, the way I see this... a Good-aligned Warblade can, if he makes sure that the entirety of the party is given weapons significant to him, update everyone's weaponry by "borrowing" it for a little while.

And the best part? All it costs them is some gold and down-time; no XP costs for our "martial crafter", no sirree!

This could even potentially work on Item Familiars... But that thought is too terrible to countenance.
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Offline linklord231

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 12:38:18 AM »
I don't think this works with Ancestral Relic, because of this:
Quote from: Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 41
No character may have more than one ancestral relic.
It doesn't say "No character may have more than one ancestral relic at a time."
Basically, you take the Ancestral Relic feat and apply it to a weapon.  You now have 1 ancestral relic.  You attempt to change the weapon Ancestral Relic applies to via Weapon Aptitude.  Doing so would mean you lose your old relic, and gain a new one simultaneously.  If you do this, how many ancestral relics have you had?  Two.  But "no character may have more than one ancestral relic," which means you can't complete that action.  Changing the target of Ancestral Relic would mean you have had 2 relics over the course of your life, which is illegal. 

That being said, I'd probably allow this trick anyway.  Of course, I usually allow people to just pay the difference between upgrades anyway, and this trick just enables that at the cost of a feat. 
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Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2012, 12:42:31 AM »
I don't think this works with Ancestral Relic, because of this:
Quote from: Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 41
No character may have more than one ancestral relic.
It doesn't say "No character may have more than one ancestral relic at a time."
Basically, you take the Ancestral Relic feat and apply it to a weapon.  You now have 1 ancestral relic.  You attempt to change the weapon Ancestral Relic applies to via Weapon Aptitude.  Doing so would mean you lose your old relic, and gain a new one simultaneously.  If you do this, how many ancestral relics have you had?  Two.  But "no character may have more than one ancestral relic," which means you can't complete that action.  Changing the target of Ancestral Relic would mean you have had 2 relics over the course of your life, which is illegal. 

That being said, I'd probably allow this trick anyway.  Of course, I usually allow people to just pay the difference between upgrades anyway, and this trick just enables that at the cost of a feat. 
Meh. I don't buy that argument against it. The wording leaves it open to interpretation. It could mean that he can only have one at a time, or it could mean that he can have only one ever. You're obviously going with the second one, but I don't think it is clear that that is either RAW or RAI.
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Offline spacemonkey555

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2012, 02:58:06 AM »
Too much sophistry. You would have to "sell" your current one, and "buy" the one you're going to update, or else either you own 2 or don't own the one you're working on.

I also don't see why you'd willingly pay out of your own pocket to upgrade your friend's gear. If you spend his money that's an admission that he still owns the item and you're just crafting it, so the sacrifice would be wasted.

Offline Amechra

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2012, 05:36:56 PM »
Well, I think of it more as:

You: "Hey, want me to upgrade your weapon?"
Them: "Sure."
You: "Alright, I can use X amount of gold on the upgrade. So I'll sell my current weapon to you for that much, and you just donate your old one to the cause."
Them: "Alright, here you go."
<Money and weaponry changes hands. You attune to their weapon, and perform an upgrade.>
You: "Alright, I've got this awesome weapon for you; I'll trade it to you for that cool-looking sword you got there."
<You get your old weapon back, they get their weapon back. Everyone is happy.>

A question is, if you used the feat to reassign Item Familiar, would you lose XP?
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Offline sirpercival

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 05:47:13 PM »
I tried that with a Chameleon's floating feat... apparently the consensus was that the XP you stored in the Item Familiar "went away" when you got rid of the feat, even though you no longer had the feat so the information about what happens when you lose the item no longer applied.
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Offline widow

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2012, 11:47:32 PM »
This is quite interesting and brings up a number of points beyond your initial example.

First of all though, I think the statement that you can only have one ancestral item is going to be a problem as pointed out earlier.  The DM will just rule as he wishes and he would not be techniquely wrong.  If I had a apartment lease that read you may only have one pet, I would not assume that means you can only have every had one pet in your entire life or you cannot move in.  But that is just me.  Also the word have instead of own is interesting, someone else can have an item without owning it.  Again, I could have an appartment, but no own it.  Although I don't think you could take the feat more than once and the feat clearly applies to a single item (not counting the warblade example).

The main thing that struck me was that it does not state anywhere that the item losses it's bonuses if lost by the original owner.  These means retraining or feat shuffle tricks work just fine on the feat after you are happy with the current level of enchantment on the item.  Wether or not the item is still an ancestral object could be debated.

Part 2, it does not state the item does not work for anyone else.  This I find interesting because of my favorite use of this feat, tomes.  At high levels the feat gp cap allows for +5 inherent Ability Score tomes.  Once you read the tome, the value of the object drops back to its base value.  Enchant, read, and repeat.  You can effectively buy tomes at half price or less (assuming you take unwanted items that were to be sold for half price as your share, and that you dont sacrifice piles salt from wall of salt spells to make the item).  Even party crafters won't want to make tomes due to the xp costs.  This means you can extend the use to other party members, assuming you have the necessary time to enchant (a problem with all crafting).  Ha, of course you could maybe work in a single use twin, repeat wish scroll effect + 1 additional wish to get a +5 for less.  Other good use of course is for your archivist.  A book of spells does have a gp value and it can be a magic item (or just put scrolls in it and write them to your spell book, risen repeat).

You could likewise have a cohort select the feat and give you the item.  Or in the example of tomes, have your cohort at home on your demi plane of fast time with the cash and item enchanting it up.

I would be afraid of trying this with an item familar granting xp though... unless you want to bring the thought bottle into the equation destroying all hopes of a reasonable game.  How does this work with the chameleon mentioned earlier though?  You must invest life energy by level 6 and chameleon bonus feat kicks in at level 7.  Early entry tactic that can boost your cap on two skills or fun with negative levels?  I am not sure if Invest Life Energy counts as a calculation described by negative energy.  But I guess you could pick a an item that grants a negative level while holding it, invest life energy, though bottle it for a 10% boost on all xp -500 for thought bottle storage, remove feat, restore xp, and repeat the process ad naseum.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2012, 11:56:24 PM »
I was really wanting to change Item Familiars so that I could reassign skill bonuses every other day (assign them with the original item, then lose the item familiar feat, then bring it back with different bonuses)... so the consensus was that the skill ranks are lost.  I extrapolated to XP but you're right.
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Offline Garryl

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 04:47:06 PM »
How is Ancestral Relic worded? I'm worried that the benefit to the item is a sort of continuous thing as a result of the feat, so when the feat no longer applies to the item (because Weapon Aptitude switches it to another one), the abilities you gave it might disappear.

Offline widow

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Re: I just noticed something really, really hardcore.
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 09:19:30 PM »
How is Ancestral Relic worded? I'm worried that the benefit to the item is a sort of continuous thing as a result of the feat, so when the feat no longer applies to the item (because Weapon Aptitude switches it to another one), the abilities you gave it might disappear.

That was what I was hoping, but it does not state anywhere that the item abilities are for personal use only or that they are temporary.  Since it has a good alignment requirement, you would think they would at least state you loss the abilities if your alignment changes, but no loss.  Not like the kensai ability where the bonus was only available to the user.