Author Topic: [Pathfinder Only] Gestalt Summon Monster/Melee  (Read 3404 times)

Offline jonathan915

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[Pathfinder Only] Gestalt Summon Monster/Melee
« on: March 12, 2012, 07:49:49 AM »
I'd like some help optimizing a character around use of the summon monster spells, but still have a character capable of dishing it out in melee and, more importantly, being able to take all kinds of a beating.  The campaign is Gestalt, the sources are Pathfinder only.  Nothing 3rd party allowed, and if it's not in the PFSRD, please tell me the source.

The houserules:
1.  I cannot gain spellcasting in more than 1 full spellcasting class at a given level.
2.  All spells and sp abilities suffer a 5% failure chance.  Su abilities function fine.
3.  Magic item creation is not allowed.  If an item creation feat is a prereq for something, I can negotiate with the dm to change it to something else.
4.  Magic items cost 1.5x as much.  Expect no loot.
5.  And lastly, don't forget, only one PrC can be progressed per level.


The build constraints:
1.  We're lvl 9, and expect to hit somewhere around 15.
2.  I was aiming to build around summoning and buffs while still being capable in combat.
3.  I'd like to be tough enough that my party isn't going to get me killed (see below).
4.  I'd also like to be able to avoid overshadowing the party most encounters, but still pull out serious firepower when we need it.  Our dm doesn't pull punches.  Being able to pull the party out of fights that are way over our heads IS going to be needed occasionally.
5.  I'd prefer to be a full caster on one side.

The party:
2 relative noobs, a tank and a sneak.  They add low to moderate damage to combat.
A decent gunslinger who has moderately good damage, but may be rerolling into a tin can based around max ac.
The last man is currently dead, and I don't know what he's rolling next, but I expect something fairly helpful.

So, without further ado, here is what I have so far:
Race: Demon-Spawn Tiefling
Base Stats with applicable mods in parenthesis (and not yet added):
Str 18(+2 race, +2 lvl), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13(-2 race), Wis 12, Cha 16(+2 race,+2 for sorc)
Traits:  Diabolical Dabbler, Reactionary
Class1//Class2              (feat):

1 fighter1//sorcerer1     (Spell Focus: Conjuration),(Weapon Focus)
2 fighter2//sorcerer2     (Combat Feat?)
3 fighter3//sorcerer3     (Augment Summoning)
4 fighter4//sorcerer4     (Weapon Specialization)
5 Antipaly1//sorcerer5   (Superior Summons)
6 Dragon Disciple1//sorcerer6
7 DD2//sorcerer 7          (Sacred Summons),(bloodline: Improved Initiative)
8 DD3//sorcerer 8
9 DD4//sorcerer 9          (eldritch heritage:Infernal(Pit-Touched))
10 ??//??
11 ??//??                        (improved eldritch heritage:Infernal(Pit-Touched))

sorcerer is crossblooded Draconic(Linnorm)/Abyssal
My bloodline abilities will be from the draconic side at 1,3,20 and the abyssal side at 9 and 15.

Note that by lvling DD at the same time as sorc my effective lvl for bloodlines is higher than it should be.  At lvl 9, it's 13, so with a cloak of arcane heritage, I have +6 str and added summons already.  When I hit lvl 11, I'll get +6 con from the pit-touched bloodline.  We aren't using fractional bab, so I have a full progression.

All of my summons get +4 str/con, I summon demons as a standard action, if I summon anything evil, I get 2 extras of it, and if I summon anything fiendish, it gets +1hp/lvl.

So, here are my questions.
Is there anything I can do to make my summons better?
Even with all my summons optimization, will they be able to be competitive against encounters a minimum of cr+3?
Thoughts, questions, comments on the build?  Suggestions to make it stronger?  Where should it go next?
What about feats/traits/other items?  Are the ones I have good, or are there any others that could do better?
How can I make myself more effective at combat?

Thanks in advance for your help :)

Offline akalsaris

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Re: [Pathfinder Only] Gestalt Summon Monster/Melee
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2012, 02:04:03 AM »
Well, I think you've hit the point of diminishing returns as far as investing in your summons goes. Maybe ask the DM if you can customize your summoning list to substitute some evil creatures on the list in place of good aligned ones.

Any particular reason you went with fighter levels? Ranger would give the same HD, more skills, good reflex save, the usual ranger stuff, and a bonus feat from whichever ranger variant you went with. Since the party has no healer, having the ability to use wands of CLW would be nice too.

What is giving demon summoning as a standard action?

What plans do you have for your swift actions in combat? It looks like you'll be able to do a standard action to summon 2 SMIV fiendish creatures or 1d3+2 SMIII creatures, then walk up into melee and fight. Quicken spell would let maybe be nice if you can squeeze it in there, or even a lesser rod of quicken to use along with mirror image, etc.

Offline jonathan915

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Re: [Pathfinder Only] Gestalt Summon Monster/Melee
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2012, 09:01:34 AM »
Demon summons as a standard action are from the sacred summons feat which lets me summon creatures that have subtypes matching my aura as a standard action.  My aura comes from the level in antipaladin, which makes it work for CE subtypes only.  I'll ask about custumizing the list a little, but do you think that feat is worth it if I can't?  Standard action summoning is quite strong, but the options I have for it are pretty limited.

Well, for 1, I've since decided to drop one of the fighter levels for another antipaladin level, granting me cha mod to saves.  The fighter levels WERE to get the 3 extra combat feats, weapon specialization, and either go weapon master archtype for weapon training 1, or two handed for 2x str to damage on a single attack or charge.  Now I lose one of those feats and the access to weapon specialization, though.  Still, even 1 extra hit/damage is nice, and 2x str on a charge can hit pretty hard since I get str boosts out of DD and my bloodline.  As far as the heals go, though, I get infernal healing as a first level spell, which gives fast healing 1 for 1 min, making it slightly more efficient than CLW.  Also, sorcerers get UMD as a class skill.

All that said, I've slowly been cutting out fighter levels and it may be time for them to go entirely.  Changing it to ranger would be interesting.  Base, I'd get a single favored enemy, one useful feat, and a favored terrain, balanced against the better ref save and skills.  The Guide and Shapeshifter archtypes seem pretty nice, though, since instead they let me buff my hit/damage and str as a swift and free action respectively.  Still, those are 1/day buffs vs. favored enemy which is always on, but situational, and the fighter bonus' that just work.  The other replacements I could think of would be barbarian, possibly combined with two levels of alchemist(ragechemist).  That would net me rage, and an improved mutagen.  What are your thoughts?

Finally, it actually turns out I can pick up quicken spell at lvl 7 as one of my bloodline feats from DD.  Looks like I completely missed the feat when I was posting it  :lmao Still, quicken isn't worth much until level 10 or 12.  Maybe I'll swap out one of my traits for magical lineage on invisibility or mirror image to get it online for lvl 10.  I WISH I could afford a lesser rod of quicken, that would be absolutely HUGE for this build.  Unfortunately, magic items cost 1.5x as much, so it costs more than I have to work with.

Oh, and with a cloak of arcane heritage, I can actually summon 3 from SM4 or 1d3+2 from SM3.  Feats and abilities always stack in the order most beneficial to the creature that possesses them unless there's a specific rule otherwise, so added summonings adds 1, and then superior summoning adds another.

So, to summarize, do you think sacred summons worth it?  Which do you think is better, fighter 3, ranger 3(archtypes?), or barbarian1/alchemist(ragechemist)2?  The fighter gives the best static bonuses, the ranger gives better situational bonuses OR better temporary bonuses along with a better reflex save and skills, while the barbarian/alchemist gives the highest total bonuses, though they're temporary and one of them costs a standard action.  Any other thoughts you may have are, of course, welcome as well :) Thank you for your help and insights :)

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: [Pathfinder Only] Gestalt Summon Monster/Melee
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2012, 04:47:38 PM »
I'm essentially PF-ignorant, but here are some half-baked suggestions. 

Wouldn't the Summoner give you a better scaling companion?  Could you put that on one side and a caster on the other?  Or does it count as a "caster"? 

Or, going with your stated goal, you could put that on one side and something fighter-esque on the other -- I'd go for something that synergizes well with teamwork or is gishy.  If you go the teamwork route, or just get some good party buffs (which I assume are on the Summoner's spell list, but PF strikes me as ludicrously nonsensical at times), then you can also be pulling the other two PCs up with you. 

Finally, do Clerics summon in PF?  B/c my thought would be you summon things up, lay down lots of party buffs (which benefit your summons in a major way), and then when you choose to wade into melee.  With cleric on one side and something fightery on the other, like Paladin/Anti-Paladin, you'll be solid in melee any way you slice it.  And, on top of that, you will benefit from those 2-3 rounds of buffs you've been laying down, too, which will make you a beast.  As indicated above, I think the Sorc could probably do the same.  And, the buffs might help your summons be competitive, too -- I don't know what spells are really in play in PF. 

Offline akalsaris

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Re: [Pathfinder Only] Gestalt Summon Monster/Melee
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2012, 10:11:37 PM »
Ah, the wording on superior summoning is different from what I thought - it does seem that you'd get 3 summons out of it. Well, if there was a single chaotic evil creature on the SMIV list, anyhow :P

I guess the real question is how much you like dretches and babau's, since that's all you'll get for a while. Once you hit SMVII though, summoning 3x vrocks or bebiliths as a standard action sounds really strong to me.

I'd go with the ranger, though fighter is a close 2nd. I'd steer away from barbarian since rage will probably interfere with spellcasting.