Author Topic: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer (UPDATE - Now a Ranger!)  (Read 12418 times)

Offline kalaskaagathas

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Kwisatz Haderach
    • View Profile
I've been invited to join a game for which we're only allowed the Player's Hand Book, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual - if it's not in those books, we can't use it.  Furthermore, the DM has disallowed all prepared casters - Clerics and Druids will be using the Sorcerer's spells known rules, but chosen off their respective lists (Clerics automatically know their domain spells, as bonus spells known).  We are only allowed races with +0 or +1 LA and 1 RHD (which will be traded for a class level) - at level 1 Characters with LA will get the BAB, HD, Saves, and Skills of their racial hit die, which will be replaced with those of their class when they reach level two (and the rest will have two HD).  Also, all teleportation effects have been banned.

I've decided (tentatively) to play a Sorcerer.  I'm not sure, however, if I'd be better off going for a Sorcerer/Red Wizard combination, or a Sorcadin Gish.  My primary concern with the Sorcadin is losing out on higher level spells (we expect to go to level 20, but even if we don't, being behind on spells is to be avoided), but I'm also concerned about the Sorcerer/Red Wizard's survivability, especially at lower levels.

If I go Red Wizard, I think I'd drop Evocation.  I'm more interested in Enchantment (though, of course, I don't want to focus on it given how common immunity to [Mind Effecting] is at higher levels), Conjuration (walls and other BC, rather than Summoning), Transmutation (buffs, mostly), and Illusions - however, I'm concerned that this might be a bit of a stretch for a core only Sorcerer.

On the Sorcadin side, my main draw is being able to wade into combat occasionally (in the manner of, say, Gandalf) but the utility of that will likely drop off after the first few levels, and Eldritch Knight would lose yet another caster level, which would bar ninth level spells, and I'm not sure that'd be worth it.  I guess the question for the Sorcadin would be, can one reasonably replicate Gandalf in core without using Wizard, or would doing so compromise the build too much?  That is, would trying to be reasonably effective in combat require giving up the most powerful spells?  And if so, how much of a blow is that to the effectiveness of the character?  The other (potential) issue with a Sorcadin would be that I would only be able to use the vanilla LG Paladin.  I'm not sure on what the party's composition is looking to be, alignment-wise, so this could be an issue, but it could be a non-issue.

I'm looking for advice on what I can expect depending on which route I take.  What steps could I take to improve my chances of survival as a Red Sorcerer?  What could I do to improve my magical abilities and combat prowess as a Sorcadin?  What other things should I look out for, both beneficial and potentially problematic?

Thanks all.

*UPDATE*
So, there have been some changes, and I can't run a Sorcerer anymore.  See the below post.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 03:08:48 AM by kalaskaagathas »
Fortune, good-night: smile once more; turn thy wheel!

Call me KA

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2012, 07:29:33 PM »
How can you enter Red Wizard?  If you're a sorcerer, you can't specialize.  Is that being handwaved?
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline kalaskaagathas

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Kwisatz Haderach
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2012, 07:39:31 PM »
How can you enter Red Wizard?  If you're a sorcerer, you can't specialize.  Is that being handwaved?

Of course, not a requirement of the class (which even says that Bards and Sorcerers may enter) it is a requirement of the Feat Prerequisite.  I assume it's being waived, but I'll have to ask the DM.  Thanks for catching that.
Fortune, good-night: smile once more; turn thy wheel!

Call me KA

Offline sirpercival

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 10855
  • you can't escape the miles
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2012, 07:46:41 PM »
Honestly, other than that, Red Wizard is a powerful PrC and Sorcs are tier 2.  With good spell choice you should be fine -- most of the broken spells (Time Stop, Shapechange, Gate, Polymorph) are in core anyway.
I am the assassin of productivity

(member in good standing of the troll-feeders guild)

It's begun — my things have overgrown the previous sig.

Offline Halinn

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2067
  • My personal text is impersonal.
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2012, 08:04:47 PM »
It's not really worth it to delay casting by two levels to gain paladin levels. You won't magically become more survivable in melee, since you will only gain a 6 hp increase on average over two sorcerer levels, your armor won't increase, and your saves don't matter that much more in melee compared to being at range.
In core, if you want to melee effectively, you're looking at cleric or druid. There is no viable arcane gish, especially given that you can't be a wizard. CoDzilla won't be limited that much by being forced to become a spontaneous caster, perhaps a tier down for clerics, with druids staying on top.

Going full sorcerer is perfectly viable, and all four full casting core prestige classes are viable (though loremaster and thaumaturgist would only remain about on par with pure sorcerer, rather than become slightly better), since they don't cost much, while all giving something.

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3352
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2012, 09:50:02 PM »
For core only, you really can't beat a straight druid.  Even with the spontaneous-casting-only nerf.  On that note, a wizard would still be better than a sorcerer, because they get new spells a level earlier and get free feats every 5 levels.
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline mthor

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • The inches ofmy penis are a countably infinite set
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 11:06:36 PM »
If you want to wade into melee, just cast polymorph. Congrats, you are now better in melee then your party fighter.
Consider the roper form for a 50 foot reach strength drain, or the hydra form for 10 attacks per turn. 
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872134/The_Complete_Polymorph_Thread_3.5 don't know if their is a bg form like this but this is what I got when I googled it.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 11:10:27 PM by mthor »
good old dependable sexy

Offline Gavinfoxx

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • OwO
    • View Profile
PM Me for my IM screennames (Steam, Telegram, Discord)

Offline kalaskaagathas

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Kwisatz Haderach
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2012, 02:45:27 AM »
It's not really worth it to delay casting by two levels to gain paladin levels. You won't magically become more survivable in melee, since you will only gain a 6 hp increase on average over two sorcerer levels, your armor won't increase, and your saves don't matter that much more in melee compared to being at range.
In core, if you want to melee effectively, you're looking at cleric or druid. There is no viable arcane gish, especially given that you can't be a wizard. CoDzilla won't be limited that much by being forced to become a spontaneous caster, perhaps a tier down for clerics, with druids staying on top.

Going full sorcerer is perfectly viable, and all four full casting core prestige classes are viable (though loremaster and thaumaturgist would only remain about on par with pure sorcerer, rather than become slightly better), since they don't cost much, while all giving something.

Yeah, Sorcadin doesn't seem to really work without a Full BAB/Full Casting PrC to follow it up.  And unfortunately, Red Wizard won't be allowed.  I could go Sorcerer 16/Archmage 4, I guess.  Though, given the parameters of this game, I'm starting to wonder if Druid might just be the way to go.  Though I don't know how they do in core, except as summoners.  And I'm less than interested in playing a summoner, frankly - it can really bog down combat.

For core only, you really can't beat a straight druid.  Even with the spontaneous-casting-only nerf.  On that note, a wizard would still be better than a sorcerer, because they get new spells a level earlier and get free feats every 5 levels.

The Wizard would be better than the Sorcerer, if it were allowed.  The only reason we get to use the spontaneous Druid and Cleric is because there's no spontaneous divine full caster in core.

If I were to go Druid, I don't know how I'd feel about the Animal Companion.  I might ask the DM if I could trade that for some other class feature - maybe the Ranger's Favored Enemy, or something.  I know that anything I trade is likely to be weaker, but I don't know that I'd use the Animal Companion anyhow (doesn't fit the character concept, bogs down combat) and so a weaker feature I'd use is better than a stronger feature I wouldn't, I guess.

I'll have to talk to the DM, but we'll see what happens.
Fortune, good-night: smile once more; turn thy wheel!

Call me KA

Offline Halinn

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2067
  • My personal text is impersonal.
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2012, 10:18:58 AM »
Druid is amazing in core. You wildshape into a bear and charge alongside your bear companion, while summoning bears. And in case you hadn't noticed, bears are freaking scary. If bears are not your style, the various lions/tigers are great too, when you can get them.

For a core only game, you pretty much can't match a druid without being a wizard.

Offline StreamOfTheSky

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2012, 11:38:47 AM »
Meh, their spell list is the crappiest, and "the ability to be a big, stupid fighter" hardly seems like bragging material.

I'd just do sorcerer.  Only real issue with sorc is cha as the casting stat.  If your DM requires knowledge checks to polymorph into things, that really bites.  The lack of class features is ok, the spells are the real prize anyway.  And since it's core and so few core feats are worthwhile, going into loremaster and/or archmage isn't too painful.  You want what?  Imp. Init, Flyby Attack...rest is pretty open.  Hmm...actually the worst thing about core sorc is utter inability to ever use quicken spell or the rods.  But, everyone in this game will have that issue, so whatever.

Offline Gavinfoxx

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • OwO
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2012, 05:45:11 PM »
Regarding knowledge checks to polymorph into things...

Remember this:

You can take 10 on skills when outside of combat.

Basic knowledge of a form is 10+HD of the creature.

If you are trained in all of the creature knowledge skills, your score on knowing about any given creature is likely your take 10 score for the skill.

So if you have a 14 int and 1 rank in each of the creature knowledge skills, you automatically know something basic about all creatures of up to 3 hit dice.
PM Me for my IM screennames (Steam, Telegram, Discord)

Offline mthor

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
  • The inches ofmy penis are a countably infinite set
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2012, 05:14:39 PM »
To be entirely honest If you are playing core only and you are forced to play a spontaneous caster with limited spells. Your best option is to go sorcerer and get the most flexible spells you can. At the first level that means casting grease and carrying a crossbow. At the 8th that means casting polymorph for a single spell which is better then most of the other core classes without really trying. If you need help picking spells solo has a wonderful guide to sorcerers in the handbook section that will tell you every spell to pick up.
good old dependable sexy

Offline kalaskaagathas

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Kwisatz Haderach
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2012, 03:05:51 AM »
Ok, so, a bit of an update: the DM has decided, as he's fairly new at this whole DMing thing, that he doesn't want to deal with any classes that get spells higher than fourth level.  So Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, they're all right out.  He has, however, decided to allow Level Adjustment Buy Off, (published) Bloodlines (maximum one), Environmental and Elemental Racial Variants, Racial Paragon Classes, Variant Character Classes, and Class Feature Variants from Unearthed Arcana.  Joy of joys, right?

So that leaves me wondering what to do.

Some further information as well:
(click to show/hide)

Other things to consider:
(click to show/hide)

So, for the build:
(click to show/hide)
Sorry for the sudden and drastic change, everybody.  Thanks for the advice regarding the Sorcerer, sorry that I can't put it to use.

Edit: Made Rangers plural rather than possessive, and an update on skills - Hide and Move Silently are being condensed to Stealth.  Can't seem to shake the stupid unclosed formatting thing though-->[/list]
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 11:07:29 PM by kalaskaagathas »
Fortune, good-night: smile once more; turn thy wheel!

Call me KA

Offline StreamOfTheSky

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer (UPDATE - Now a Ranger!)
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2012, 10:37:12 AM »
Ok.

So, why mounted archery?  Mongols are awesome, yes, but this makes no sense.  If you were a scout/ranger, it would, since skirmish is gained by moving.  But as a rogue, you basically need stealthiness (good luck on a galloping steed or even a winged bat/bird), flanking (a valid use for the companion, but not if you're mounted on it; other than using it as transport, then quick dismounting), or ring of blinking (n which case, you'll probably just fall off the freaking horse).

Still do your build, I would just change the focus a bit...

Bloodline: A major bloodline is +3 LA, yes?  Unless your DM is using buy off rules different than in UA, the levels you need just to START buying off climb very quickly.  I would stick to LA +1 at most if so.  I'm not that familiar w/ bloodlines, but doesn't one of them (Titan?) let you use oversized weapons at no penalty?  Bow damage is based on the size of the bow, not the arrows, so that can help up your damage.  Obviously if you're doing a small, sneaky race disregard, this would be if you do human or some other medium creature.

Race: I'm a huge fan of Wood Elf from the MM.  +2 Str and Dex, -2 Con and Int.  The Con hurts, though.  Wild Elf is just +2 Dex, -2 Int, might be better.  If the DM allows stacking the fire race stuff onto an elf racial variant, you can negate that int penalty with a Fire Wild (Wild Fire?) Elf.  Your DM's rules for racial HD confuse me, it sounds like he's assuming they all have the same amount of LA.  Some only have 1 or even none, some have a bunch of LA.  You definitely want a race with darkvision or at least low-light.  SA is screwed by miss chance, poor lighting is a common reason to encounter miss %.

Flaw: I'd take Poor Reflexes.  You'll have massive dex and your multiclasing gives you a base reflex of +6 by 5th level.  If you do take Murky-Eyed, you need a Seeking bow even more ASAP than a normal rogue archer.

Classes: Unless you left out a detail, DEFINITELY go rogue first for the 8 skill points, I'd value those more than the 2 hp.  However... what did you mean by, "I lose out on two HP and my Fort save that way"?  If he houseruled that you only get the +2 for base saves from your first level...definitely go ranger.  Rogue base saves SUCK.  Otherwise, yes, I'd go Rogue 1, then at least one in ranger, then however you like.  Going to rogue 4 instead of just 3 for Uncanny Dodge seems like a good idea.  Getting to ranger 2 quickly for rapid shot also seems like a good idea.

You may want to forfeit the monk AC early on.  Even with a +4 wis... chain shirt is +4 AC, and bucklers specifically allow you to use them without any penalties with a bow.  You won't be proficient with bucklers, but masterwork makes that not matter (no acp to penalize you with).  So you'd actually have better AC at levels 2-3 and maybe higher, forgoing the unarmored AC.  Of course, no armor also gives you flurry and fast movement, so eventually you'd want to shed the armor.

Feats: *Your DM is ok with you using TWF and flurry?  Even if he is, for a while that's a lot of attack penalty.  I would just rely on unarmed flurry to handle melee and use a bow and focus on bow-related feats.  Even with more feats, it's still a burden to get them all early on.  You want PBS, Precise, and Rapid Shot (from Ranger), then obviously the Swift...Backstabber? and Wild Cohort feats.  I would also be sure to get Power Attack for when you can't SA, though it's not a priority.  Then maybe start thinking about the TWF line or Improved Initiative.*  Even just using your mount as a taxi (or as a mount to deal with flying enemies; get a flying mount), Mounted Combat is probably worth it eventually.  Mounted Archery never is.  It's core only, so feats you really need will eventually dry up, more reason to not be a human.

*I write this not sure how you're getting most of these for free.  You said BARB gets both combat styles, not ranger.  And that still doesn't explain where some like Power Attack are coming from.

Gear: As a rogue, you want a seeking bow ASAP, for reasons mentioned above.  You also want a ring of blinking.  Once you have this item, you will always be able to sneak attack with a full attack from now on, save for the occasional round to re-activate it.  Since arrows leaving your possession lose any of your magical effects (size, invisibility, etc...), they cease to be blinking and thus you suffer NO chance of them blinking out and not hitting.

Offline Gavinfoxx

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • OwO
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer (UPDATE - Now a Ranger!)
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2012, 08:02:53 PM »
Skirmish doesn't let you get skirmish damage while mounted...
PM Me for my IM screennames (Steam, Telegram, Discord)

Offline kalaskaagathas

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Kwisatz Haderach
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer (UPDATE - Now a Ranger!)
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2012, 11:03:07 PM »
Ok.

So, why mounted archery?  Mongols are awesome, yes, but this makes no sense.  If you were a scout/ranger, it would, since skirmish is gained by moving.  But as a rogue, you basically need stealthiness (good luck on a galloping steed or even a winged bat/bird), flanking (a valid use for the companion, but not if you're mounted on it; other than using it as transport, then quick dismounting), or ring of blinking (n which case, you'll probably just fall off the freaking horse).

Still do your build, I would just change the focus a bit...

Mounted Archery enables me to have mobility and full attacks at the same time (and it looks like I'll be able to flurry with my bow, so with Rapid Shot that's six attacks per round, isn't it?) which should be a useful ability.  Setting up sneak attack might be tricky but I figure it's nothing I can't get around with greater invisibility for me and the mount.  And I'd rather have the option of sneak attacking or fighting mounted than have only one or the other on the table.

Quote
Bloodline: A major bloodline is +3 LA, yes?  Unless your DM is using buy off rules different than in UA, the levels you need just to START buying off climb very quickly.  I would stick to LA +1 at most if so.  I'm not that familiar w/ bloodlines, but doesn't one of them (Titan?) let you use oversized weapons at no penalty?  Bow damage is based on the size of the bow, not the arrows, so that can help up your damage.  Obviously if you're doing a small, sneaky race disregard, this would be if you do human or some other medium creature.

Race: I'm a huge fan of Wood Elf from the MM.  +2 Str and Dex, -2 Con and Int.  The Con hurts, though.  Wild Elf is just +2 Dex, -2 Int, might be better.  If the DM allows stacking the fire race stuff onto an elf racial variant, you can negate that int penalty with a Fire Wild (Wild Fire?) Elf.  Your DM's rules for racial HD confuse me, it sounds like he's assuming they all have the same amount of LA.  Some only have 1 or even none, some have a bunch of LA.  You definitely want a race with darkvision or at least low-light.  SA is screwed by miss chance, poor lighting is a common reason to encounter miss %.

Bloodlines don't quite work like LA.  I get the benefits, but have to pay some XP at certain points to keep getting them.  Titan does let you use oversized weapons, or at least an oversized hammer, but I don't know how comfortable my DM will be with that (he retains the right to veto choices, of course).  Beyond "Use Oversize Weapon" I'm not sure that Titan gives me any benefit that Storm Giant wouldn't.  As far as Race goes, I would like to pick up Low-Light Vision, or better yet Darkvision, but there aren't many choices for that in core.  I could conceivably go Dwarf, or Orc, but they've got their own drawbacks.  I'm not sure that Dark Vision from either of those would offset said drawbacks.

The RHD thing is that the only races allowed are those with 1 HD and 1 LA or 1 HD and 0 LA.  So if you've got an LA 1 race with 2 RHD then they wouldn't be allowed.

Quote
Flaw: I'd take Poor Reflexes.  You'll have massive dex and your multiclasing gives you a base reflex of +6 by 5th level.  If you do take Murky-Eyed, you need a Seeking bow even more ASAP than a normal rogue archer.

I dunno about Poor Reflexes - how often do enemies with miss chance come up?  I recognize that I'm gonna have a good Ref save, but having what is essentially a -1 base save for the first few levels feels like it might be a bit of an issue.  And since a Seeking Bow would basically negate Murky-Eyed at higher levels (and is beneficial anyway), whereas Poor Reflexes would still be present (and I'd have to dig myself out of the -3 hole I'm in, with whatever I do to boost my Ref save), I'm not convinced that it makes sense in the long term.

Quote
Classes: Unless you left out a detail, DEFINITELY go rogue first for the 8 skill points, I'd value those more than the 2 hp.  However... what did you mean by, "I lose out on two HP and my Fort save that way"?  If he houseruled that you only get the +2 for base saves from your first level...definitely go ranger.  Rogue base saves SUCK.  Otherwise, yes, I'd go Rogue 1, then at least one in ranger, then however you like.  Going to rogue 4 instead of just 3 for Uncanny Dodge seems like a good idea.  Getting to ranger 2 quickly for rapid shot also seems like a good idea.

You may want to forfeit the monk AC early on.  Even with a +4 wis... chain shirt is +4 AC, and bucklers specifically allow you to use them without any penalties with a bow.  You won't be proficient with bucklers, but masterwork makes that not matter (no acp to penalize you with).  So you'd actually have better AC at levels 2-3 and maybe higher, forgoing the unarmored AC.  Of course, no armor also gives you flurry and fast movement, so eventually you'd want to shed the armor.

He hasn't houseruled that you only get the +2 at first level, I just meant that my Fort would be lower at first level as a Rogue than a Ranger.  So yeah, Rogue 1/Ranger 1-2/Rogue 2-3 seems sensible for the first five levels.  As to Uncanny Dodge, if I do go for mounted combat, then I don't know that I'm going to get flanked terribly often.  And it'd be the Uncanny Dodge of a fourth level Rogue, and I'm not sure that makes better sense than Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight.

As to the Monk features trade, I don't think I'd be able to pick that up after picking up my first Ranger level.  Yeah, my AC may be higher for a few levels, but in the long term it would give me less benefit than the Monk trade.  I could conceivably use light armor and a masterwork buckler (once I can afford it) until high levels, if that's what you meant, and I figure I'll want something for first level, but I don't know that I want to shell out for a Chain Shirt.  I'll consider it, though.

Quote
Feats: *Your DM is ok with you using TWF and flurry?  Even if he is, for a while that's a lot of attack penalty.  I would just rely on unarmed flurry to handle melee and use a bow and focus on bow-related feats.  Even with more feats, it's still a burden to get them all early on.  You want PBS, Precise, and Rapid Shot (from Ranger), then obviously the Swift...Backstabber? and Wild Cohort feats.  I would also be sure to get Power Attack for when you can't SA, though it's not a priority.  Then maybe start thinking about the TWF line or Improved Initiative.*  Even just using your mount as a taxi (or as a mount to deal with flying enemies; get a flying mount), Mounted Combat is probably worth it eventually.  Mounted Archery never is.  It's core only, so feats you really need will eventually dry up, more reason to not be a human.

*I write this not sure how you're getting most of these for free.  You said BARB gets both combat styles, not ranger.  And that still doesn't explain where some like Power Attack are coming from.

Yeah, my DM is ok with me using TWF and flurry together.  And it's only a penalty if I need to - I figure a reach weapon will generally allow me to dictate whether I use it or not.  I guess I could see that Mounted Archery isn't super useful, but it's still (effectively) a +2 to hit while mounted (and double moving), which is at least better than weapon focus.  It's not a priority, sure, but since I've got plenty of feats I'm not sure it's entirely useless.  I'll just want to pick up useful things before I get it.  I may even want to pick up Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge, if I'm running out of useful feats.  A lance charge for when I can't shoot can get pretty nasty, as I understand it.  And I do believe that I did write that both Barb and Ranger get both combat styles (though I fear I've made the Ranger possessive rather than plural, I'll have to fix that), so that should explain TWF and all that.  Endurance and Track come from Ranger, Power Attack and Cleave come from Major Storm Giant Bloodline.  And Human isn't just for the free feat - the bonus to skills means I basically get +2 Int for free (at least for determining skill points).

Quote
Gear: As a rogue, you want a seeking bow ASAP, for reasons mentioned above.  You also want a ring of blinking.  Once you have this item, you will always be able to sneak attack with a full attack from now on, save for the occasional round to re-activate it.  Since arrows leaving your possession lose any of your magical effects (size, invisibility, etc...), they cease to be blinking and thus you suffer NO chance of them blinking out and not hitting.

Ok, that's useful.  If Wild Cohorts can share spells (like an Animal Companion) can they share the effects from magical items?  A ring of Blinking would then mean that the horse and I both blink, and a ring of Greater Invisibility (I wouldn't need both, of course) would mean that we're both invisible, right?  Or would I need one for each of us, or something like that?  Are there any other enchantments that I'll want?

Skirmish doesn't let you get skirmish damage while mounted...

'Cause that makes sense.  Not saying that you're wrong of course (you're not, as far as I remember), but man, WotC made some silly decisions, didn't they?
Fortune, good-night: smile once more; turn thy wheel!

Call me KA

Offline StreamOfTheSky

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 1219
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer (UPDATE - Now a Ranger!)
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 02:24:58 AM »
Mounted Archery: I mean it's useless because the rules already let you full attack with a ranged weapon while it moves, double moves, or runs.  The latter two just have an attack penalty.  All the feat does is lessen the penalties.  Usually a single move on a mount is sufficient, so I consider the feat  poor.
How are you flurrying with a bow?

Murky-Eyed vs. Poor Reflexes: I guess it mostly comes down to how quickly you expect to get your hands on a seeking bow.  But even w/ poor reflexes, you'll have one of the best reflex saves in the party, and reflex is the least important save.

Races: I named a bunch that get low-light vision and are good...  Also, if you insist on being mounted, you might want to be a small race, otherwise fitting your mount in dungeons may be difficult.  Forest Gnome from the MM is basically gnome, but better (and has darkvision).  Water Halfling from UA basically gets a free +2 con in return for -2 on saves against fire effects, totaly worth it.  Halfling has no special vision, though, so I'd only pick Water Halfling if you could add it to Deep Halfling from the MM (Deep Water? Halfling), which does get darkvision.

Uncanny Dodge: Is for not losing AC when flatfooted or attacked by invisible foes.  You're thinking of Imp. Uncanny Dodge which is indeed pretty useless to an archer.  But not losing your huge dex bonus to AC?  Pretty nice.

Monk trade: I meant for you to take it, but opt to not use it early on.  Not try and gain it later on.

Share Spells: Will not work with a ring of blinking.  Even if it did or you got another one for your mount and it somehow had the ability to know how to use it, you wouldn't necessarily be blinking at the exact same moments, so you'd just fall off the mount anyway.


Skirmish: It only doesn't work while mounted if you use WotC's idiotic errata which I hate.  Even if you do, there's a dragon mag variant scout that gets skirmish ONLY when mounted.  So you still could do it anyway.  Nyah.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 02:28:50 AM by StreamOfTheSky »

Offline kalaskaagathas

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 61
  • Kwisatz Haderach
    • View Profile
Re: [3.5] Core Only (PHB, DMG, MM only) Sorcerer (UPDATE - Now a Ranger!)
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 12:58:05 PM »
Mounted Archery: I mean it's useless because the rules already let you full attack with a ranged weapon while it moves, double moves, or runs.  The latter two just have an attack penalty.  All the feat does is lessen the penalties.  Usually a single move on a mount is sufficient, so I consider the feat  poor.
How are you flurrying with a bow?

Looking at it again, I think you're right on this one.  And I'm flurrying with a bow because my DM has houseruled it so that I can.  "It wouldn't make sense for you only to be able to flurry with monk weapons, since you're not proficient with them, and you're not a monk," was the gist of his reasoning.  It remains to be seen what all I'll be able to flurry with, but it looks like my bow will be an option.

Quote
Murky-Eyed vs. Poor Reflexes: I guess it mostly comes down to how quickly you expect to get your hands on a seeking bow.  But even w/ poor reflexes, you'll have one of the best reflex saves in the party, and reflex is the least important save.

All of that is true, but I think that, in the long term, Murky-Eyed has a smaller impact on my character effectiveness.

Quote
Races: I named a bunch that get low-light vision and are good...  Also, if you insist on being mounted, you might want to be a small race, otherwise fitting your mount in dungeons may be difficult.  Forest Gnome from the MM is basically gnome, but better (and has darkvision).  Water Halfling from UA basically gets a free +2 con in return for -2 on saves against fire effects, totaly worth it.  Halfling has no special vision, though, so I'd only pick Water Halfling if you could add it to Deep Halfling from the MM (Deep Water? Halfling), which does get darkvision.

I hadn't considered being small...the speed loss is offset by the fact that I'm mounted (and the Monk speed boost besides).  This is something I'll need to consider, frankly.  I think that on balance it might be worth it over human, but I'll need to work out what I'd be gaining and what I'd be giving up.  And I'll ask the DM about Deep Water Halfling.

Quote
Uncanny Dodge: Is for not losing AC when flatfooted or attacked by invisible foes.  You're thinking of Imp. Uncanny Dodge which is indeed pretty useless to an archer.  But not losing your huge dex bonus to AC?  Pretty nice.

This sounds much better than HIPS at level twenty.  I don't think I lose any BAB, and my saves are basically the same (slightly higher Ref, even), and I trade an HP for two skill points.  On the whole a better trade, I like it.

Quote
Monk trade: I meant for you to take it, but opt to not use it early on.  Not try and gain it later on.

Yeah, that makes more sense.

Quote
Share Spells: Will not work with a ring of blinking.  Even if it did or you got another one for your mount and it somehow had the ability to know how to use it, you wouldn't necessarily be blinking at the exact same moments, so you'd just fall off the mount anyway.

Yeah, I figured that was the case, but it's a 'no' until you ask, right?

Quote
Skirmish: It only doesn't work while mounted if you use WotC's idiotic errata which I hate.  Even if you do, there's a dragon mag variant scout that gets skirmish ONLY when mounted.  So you still could do it anyway.  Nyah.

Yeah, the errata is hateful and dumb, but that's not really surprising to anyone, is it?
Fortune, good-night: smile once more; turn thy wheel!

Call me KA