Author Topic: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic  (Read 6226 times)

Offline Libertad

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Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« on: April 08, 2012, 04:04:02 PM »
Most inhabitants of D&D settings offer prayers and devotion to one deity while acknowledging the existence of other deities.  In fact, Clerics aren't polytheists, for most of them pledge their loyalty to a singular deity; they're monolatrists.

Polytheists offer respect and devotion to multiple deities.  Most D&D settings have people who may offer prayers to other deities at times, but worship and devotion to a singular deity, or one's patron deity, is still predominant.

In cases of wrathful and evil deities, traditional polytheism would be nearly non-existent.  Can you imagine Lolth's clergy tolerating a Drow who offered a prayer to a nature deity to avoid a cave-in instead of the Spider Queen?

The verifiable existence of multiple deities means that actual monotheists are few and far between.  Conversely, only the deluded and ignorant would be atheists.  But anti-theism is still more common than the former two, as anger and hatred towards the Gods can still occur, especially in bad times.  Anti-theism was predominant in the Dragonlance setting after the Cataclysm occurred.

What do you folks think?  Agree?  Disagree?  I'd love to hear your thoughts!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 10:39:31 PM by Libertad »

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 05:02:14 PM »
Interesting.  I've never actually put enough thought in to it to the point of actually putting words to it.

Here's my take:
Joe commoner is probably either a henotheist or an anti-theist (most likely the former; but certain setting- or culture-specific details may dictate the latter).  Though, in a place like Athas, it's more along the lines of "not a single fuck is given".

Clerics are generally going to be monolatrists.



How's that?

Offline Agita

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 05:58:36 PM »
Not exactly new, but true. The existence of specific faiths that explicitly are truly polytheistic (The Sovereign Host, which has polytheism as the default form of worship, but also has monolatrists) is a notable further point of evidence. I'm unsure on whether to assume that this was intended from the start (probably not), but I can definitely buy that Baker did it deliberately.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2012, 06:04:28 PM »
There's also things like that LN cult that worships Heironeous and Hextor as aspects of the same being.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 06:39:39 PM »
Most inhabitants of D&D settings offer prayers and devotion to one deity while acknowledging the existence of other deities.  In fact, Clerics aren't polytheists, for most of them pledge their loyalty to a singular deity; they're monolatrists.

Polytheists offer respect and devotion to multiple deities.  Most D&D settings have people who may offer prayers to other deities at times, but worship and devotion to a singular deity, or one's patron deity, is still predominant.
...
This seems untrue to me.  In standard D&D and related fantasy stories (e.g., Skyrim), everyone acknowledges, and reveres the deities as a whole.  Or, at least those that they are favorably disposed towards, depending on their level of religiosity and so on (like real people).  Usually, prayers are "targeted" towards the deities most relevant to whatever request or task at hand:  you pray to the smith god when smithing, the water and weather ones when sailing and so forth.  The classic Greeks -- by which I mean the ones from the myths and not the actual people -- follow this model.  They famously sacrificed to Poseidon when wanting to make a sea journey.  Another good example, which I think captures the default assumption of D&D settings, George RR Martin's Westeros -- the Seven are revered collectively, and you pray to whatever one is most relevant at the time, e.g., the Father for justice, the Warrior before battle.  That leads to some correlation between careers or social roles and the deities you're most attached to. 

The curve ball D&D throws in is racial deities.  Although then they still seem to follow the same pattern b/c D&D has such an extensive set of pantheons.  The dwarves have Moradin, for smithing and all-around godliness (he's sort of like Zeus that way), but they also have Clangeddin for the smashing.  Even the drow have a few gods, such as Valehroon (sp?), though Lolth wears the pants.  If other worship is outlawed, that would make them the exception rather than the rule.  I could see racial deities, largely b/c no one can remember all of them, falling into monolatrism -- the elves all call on Correllon for everything. 

As to clerics, you might be right.  I'm not sure.  Very few ancient Greek priests (from the stories) were priests to a specific god.  They tended to be more general, following the polytheistic "who do I need to talk to today?" pattern described above.  The Romans had elaborate temples to particular deities, though these were again mostly broken up by function:  Jupiter for augury, Venus for lovemaking and relationship advice, etc. 

It's up in the air whether a priest of god X would call upon god Y when Y was more appropriate.  This doesn't strike me as weird, and that's given the years that I've bounced around various D&D settings, especially if the gods were in the same pantheon.  It doesn't hit my ear wrong to have a cleric of Lathandar call upon Tyr to help him smite some undead with his mace. 

Although, to what extent do the default settings in D&D really have pantheons nowadays? 

Aesthetically speaking, it does seem a bit odd for clerics to be too monolatrist, unless you have few gods so they cover a lot of territory with their portfolios.  Given the breadth of spells a D&D cleric is going to cast in the course of a day, they might touch on many portfolios.  Having a few gods to call upon, based on intercessions, shared interests, etc., might make that more sensible. 

Offline Prime32

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2012, 07:11:31 PM »
As to clerics, you might be right.  I'm not sure.  Very few ancient Greek priests (from the stories) were priests to a specific god.  They tended to be more general, following the polytheistic "who do I need to talk to today?" pattern described above.  The Romans had elaborate temples to particular deities, though these were again mostly broken up by function:  Jupiter for augury, Venus for lovemaking and relationship advice, etc.
IIRC even these temples had spaces for the worship of other gods, particularly Zeus/Jupiter.

Offline veekie

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 04:45:24 AM »
As to clerics, you might be right.  I'm not sure.  Very few ancient Greek priests (from the stories) were priests to a specific god.  They tended to be more general, following the polytheistic "who do I need to talk to today?" pattern described above.  The Romans had elaborate temples to particular deities, though these were again mostly broken up by function:  Jupiter for augury, Venus for lovemaking and relationship advice, etc.
IIRC even these temples had spaces for the worship of other gods, particularly Zeus/Jupiter.
Generally for polytheistic places of worship, you have shrines for the other gods, but pride of place tends to go to one, at least in my experience.

Traditional Chinese religion for example go from the following:
Singular shrine to one deity/ancestor - Usually small(you could fit one in a 5ft space). Police and organized criminals tend to have one to the god of loyalty for example. Generally as an adjunct to places of utility rather than worship.

Family 'set' - Multiple small shrines, to Heaven, the Land God, the Gate gods, and 1-2 others(like an ancestral altar). Generally family use, for daily worship.

Small temple(general) - A complete set of all the commonly worshipped gods, sharing altars. Usually serves a community.

Small temple(specific) - One big altar for a specific god, and several smaller shrines(usually always one to Heaven). Serves focused communities, like places with a large population of fishermen, etc. Some of them grow over time, in which case you see their specialty god having pride of place but the others usually have at least a communal altar.

Large temple - You tend to get multiple rooms, or even separate buildings dedicated to particular gods or sub-pantheons. Serves a big region.

Priests tend to be general use, though some places have specifically dedicated priests who tend one particular deity or sub-pantheon over the rest. Not exclusively though.

Less personally familiar with others, but I think the D&D cleric system is closest to the Hindu faith, of the living polytheistic religions.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 04:47:26 AM by veekie »
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Offline Ithamar

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 01:56:43 PM »
There is this little snippet from Complete Divine:
Quote from: Page 6
Serving a Pantheon:  Characters who serve a pantheon venerate several deities, asking each god for intercession in matters that refl ect the god’s interest (called a portfolio).  For example, a cleric that worships a pantheon based on Greek gods might ask Hermes for an expeditious retreat spell, Athena for an oracular vision, or Hades for the power to repel the undead. Clerics who choose to serve a pantheon can choose their two domains from among all the domains offered by all the deities of the pantheon (except aberrant gods—those whose worship is not sanctioned by the clerics of the pantheon as a whole). A cleric can only select an alignment domain if his alignment matches that domain. The cleric’s alignment must match the alignment of some deity in the pantheon (excluding
aberrant gods).
So it is certainly possible to serve an entire pantheon.

Offline veekie

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 02:25:15 PM »
Yeah, but few D&D settings or depicted cleric ever does that.
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 04:15:10 PM »
hmm ... the Ur-Priest is weird.

The "gods" exist.
They are powerful.
UrP doesn't believe in any of them.
UrP siphons their power.
( ... I'm sure the fluff text has more details ... )

Can't really be an Atheist.
Is a little bit more of an Anti-Theist,
but has nothing without the deities
from which to yank their power.
WTF is this?

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Someone that directly worships a DvR 20 deity
is iirc called Henotheism / Henotheist.
But I'm not real tight on the definitions for all this.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2012, 09:35:56 AM »
^ Maltheist?

Offline Libertad

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2012, 02:39:12 PM »
Haven't read the whole thing, but there was an archived /tg/ thread discussing the nature of the Ur-Priest and whether or not the PRC's features were really "Evil."

It's an interesting read, and all the banners and images are work-safe, but I'll take it down if there's any policy against linking this.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2012, 02:35:56 PM »
^ Maltheist?

YES !!

The Mal-Theist

then I wonder if a Divine Mind is an Amal-Theist ...  ;)


So what to do with a Cleric of Philosophy(s), like what
CO is so fond of?  Almost all of the fluff text still applies,
even though there is no real "worship" involved.

D+Dg had a small section on Greek Philosophy ...  :???
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Most D&D Clerics aren't polytheistic
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2012, 06:23:20 PM »
Haven't read the whole thing, but there was an archived /tg/ thread discussing the nature of the Ur-Priest and whether or not the PRC's features were really "Evil."[/url]

It's an interesting read, and all the banners and images are work-safe, but I'll take it down if there's any policy against linking this.
Heh.

Isn't there a variant of the UrP that is neutral?
It's been refered to around here on occasion.
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