Author Topic: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride  (Read 16325 times)

Offline Kajhera

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2012, 06:12:48 PM »
I assure you my numbers are accurate and include the troglodyte zombie. Check my maximum.

Feels a little pointless to do saves, almost, but we need a place to start. Just can't muster up the will to input the data. Also just got home and will probably be doing other things a while.

Excluding outliers and so on will be pretty simple once we have lists of numbers. Excluding based on monster overall properties is kinda more complicated and outside the realm of extremely basic statistics.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2012, 06:23:29 PM »
Anyone know enough Perl to trawl the SRD and extract all the numbers?
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Offline Kajhera

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 06:50:09 PM »
Anyone know enough Perl to trawl the SRD and extract all the numbers?

... You know, I'm pretty sure Ruby can do that. I've just never trawled anything yet. Sounds more fun than manual input however!

Offline Ziegander

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 10:53:16 PM »
I assure you my numbers are accurate and include the troglodyte zombie. Check my maximum.

Okay, good, then I guess I just mixed up the Grig with the animated object.

Quote
Excluding outliers and so on will be pretty simple once we have lists of numbers. Excluding based on monster overall properties is kinda more complicated and outside the realm of extremely basic statistics.

Exactly. We can get to excluding different numbers based on the overall "type" or "role" or whathaveyou later, in the deep analysis. Right now I just want to throw together the averages, untampered with, and see what they look like.

I also do think it's vital that after we do that we determine what percent of monsters of any given CR have specific special attacks, special qualities, skills, and feats. I think that information will be very useful.

After we get that stuff down, we can start talking about the more complicated stuff. The stuff that we'll actually have to debate a little about and, hopefully, come to some sort of consensus.

Offline Imaginos

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2012, 02:56:50 PM »
Sounds like an interesting project in the works, always good to see actual numbers being crunched. Also appreciate Ziegander approaching this divisive topic so civilly.

Here's my issue: The CR system sucks. It fails to account for differences in power and versatility between class/feat/spell choices, which is kind of the point of this discussion. But it also ignores differences in tactical ability, system mastery and party composition, not to mention the rock-paper-scissors way in which monster and character abilities can interact. It is not hard for a competent GM to crush even a decently optimized and played party with a CR-appropriate encounter, should he decide to do so, simply by metagaming and playing to the party's weaknesses. I don't hear anyone advocating this kind of adversarial GMing, but as GM fiat plays such a heavy role in determining encounter difficulty (it is equally easy to throw a CR-appropriate softball encounter to Team Gimp) I find it hard to accept the CR system as a basis for objective character standards.

There must be some objective standard, as otherwise the game is Magical Tea Party and not Dungeons & Dragons, but I would set it at an extremely low level. I'd put the 'armless archers' and unoptimized Truenamers of the world below the acceptable threshold because their abilities just don't function. However, I'd let an unoptimized Bard 4/Cleric 4 onboard the ride because even in a theoretical houserule-free game I believe there is a reasonable expectation that the GM will base encounters around the actual abilities of the players.  This can require deviating from CR guidelines if PCs are exceptionally strong or weak for their level, but that doesn't necessarily make it a houserule:

(click to show/hide)

While a difference in GM worldbuilding style shouln't really be called a houserule, the last line leads me to believe that tailored encounters (with a smattering of status-quo ones thrown in) should be considered the default expectation in D&D. I just don't see how any objective standard beyond basic functionality can apply in such a case.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 03:00:07 PM by Imaginos »
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Offline InnaBinder

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2012, 08:55:31 PM »
Quote from: Imaginos
It is not hard for a competent GM to crush even a decently optimized and played party with a CR-appropriate encounter, should he decide to do so, simply by metagaming and playing to the party's weaknesses.
It's not even (necessarily) metagaming or a conscious decision on the DM's part.  A DM that figures a party should be able to handle a flying adversary at 7th level, for example, can wind up with a TPK on his hands if even some of the players did not choose spells/equipment for the day with flying in mind.  This is especially likely, IME, if the party is relatively new so that the DM doesn't have a solid idea of exactly what the party's ACTUAL (not presumed) tactical abilities are.
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Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2012, 11:55:03 PM »
passive number prereqs? Maybe 3.5 as play tested, but we know better. I'm not sure if I think this will finish but good luck. This was as best I could come up with over a 'no no no' post.

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2012, 01:04:57 AM »
I like this, if I have time I'll make some sortable tables that auto add/median ect...
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Offline veekie

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Re: D&D 3.5: You Must Be This Tall to Ride the Ride
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2012, 04:28:35 AM »
Hmm, some other factors which may not come into play with most games, since the raw numbers we're working on are for singular foes. What do we do with multiple creatures?

Obviously tailored encounters are out of the question when establishing baselines(especially things like putting the CR 1/2 Elf Warrior on a CR 2 Dire Bat, which produces a long ranged attacker who does not need to attack in melee, unlike other low CR fliers). Do we assemble encounter groups out of the organization entry?

Eg.
CR 2 - Dretch
CR 3 - Dretch Pair
CR ~4 - Gang of 3-5 Dretch
CR ~5 - Crowd of 6-15 Dretch
CR ~6 - Mob of 10-40 Dretch
Noting that at higher CRs only means higher probability of a Stinking Cloud getting through, and past 30 they physically cannot all be in melee with the party.
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