[3.5] Adding versatility to a archer or monk..

[animewatcha]

Ability scores: 4d6 per stat. re-roll 1s. totally is atleast +1 modifier before racial / sterf or reroll. Keep track of the 6 stats rolls and distribute according to wishes.

Tome of battle is banned except for a couple of feats of SUS and Snap kick. Cannot be evil (starting out. Have to prove to DM one can be evil-evil and not killing spree/easy-way-out evil ). If use paladin, can only be LG ( or LE, but again a no-no. ) Incarnum is a no. Psionics is not messed with very much and I have nearly no knowledge of it so please nearly none of it.  DMs I am with usually go with a mixture of monsters and mobs with equipment. It also isn't uncommon for my party to be total meleers or meleers with a little of offensive casting( like duskblade ). So assume no healer-healer or party-spellcaster-crafter. And party goes with what class levels they want for the character they wanna play and we all generally have varying levels of equipment so 100% optimization via equipment is nearly out the window. I generally don't know their classes ahead of time.

Wanting at most a total-LA of +1 or +2 only if desperate. Need multiple options in case of specific regional stuff ( like how dragonmarks/shards are only in eberron .)

Large size being pretty much a given for the fighter or monk so half-minotaur is likely option. I can see a dip into cloistered cleric for strength devotion ( and the ever-abused knowledge devotion ) combined with education regional feat. What domain or devotion would go well with this?

For the archer. Mainly what will aid in ranged disarm, and ranged sunder? I already know of spllitting enchantment and force enchancement and the blunt and slash arrows. What else is there? Levels are mostly pure 'fighter.' I acknowledge not being the party tank, not crowd control, etc. Ranged support being through damage, through limiting the enemy means of damage, etc. That and strength devotion can help sunder enemy weapons that come into melee with me. Basically, taking away from 'damage feats' to add 'more options' feats.

For the 'monk.' Using the dragon mag, fighter bonus feat variant ( no to epic feat cheese ). Going the opportunistic combatant approach so, tripping, disarming, sundering if need be. Call it troubleshooter if you want. Basically, if not doing damage, then screwing with their ability to fight if I can. Generally, adding options besides 'I punch their face in.' I don't mind that I won't be full-attacking all the time or that have lowered BAB.

Called shots are allowed at a -4 penalty. Flaws are allowed ( though generally use only 1. Might be able to convince for number 2. ) If 2 flaws, then no traits. If one flaw, then only one trait is allowed.

As far as sundering goes, party seems to be okay with it as it is needed.

[Kalleo]

Just curious, why a fighter instead of a ranger? I mean, yes, an optimized fighter archer can be just as good, if not better. But one thing that came to mind that would work, if you were a ranger, is "tactical advantage." It's a feat that lets you get your favored enemy bonus on all opposed Trip, Disarm and Bull Rush attempts. Combine that with either Harper Paragon or Stalker of Kharash, which nets you Favored Enemy:Evil, the Improved Favored Enemy feat, and a weapon with the Hunting enhancement, and suddenly every ranged disarm attempt you make against an evil creature gets an automatic +9. God help them if you continue to boost FE:Evil while leveling. This also opens up the possibility of taking the Nemesis feat for evil creatures, which allows you to pinpoint their location within 60' of you and deal an extra d6 against them.

But again, this all only works if you're a ranger. Just in general, ranged disarm and sunder are considered fairly suboptimal. Really gotta work to make them worth it.

[Kalleo]

Also, I know you said no psionics, but I feel like I should mention that Tashalatora (combining monk levels with psionic levels, Psychic Warrior often being the choice) is widely considered the way to make an effective monk.

Basically, the best monk isn't really a monk. Barbarian/Monk/Fist of the Forest/Bear Warrior comes to mind.

[Unbeliever]

Are these 2 separate options for the same character or 2 characters in the same party? 

@Monk
I think a tactical monk can work just fine.  Just get great stuff like Knockdown, some reach, Decisive Strike (maybe), or Knockback, and go to town.  You can lock down melee opponents fairly effectively, and ruin caster's lives with Mage Slayer and Supernatural Opportunist (ToM).  I'd also just jack your unarmed combat damage -- standard monk stuff -- so that your AoOs are sufficiently punishing.  A goliath or half giant would also be a good race.

As to devotions, I really like Law and Animal for flexibility.  Law helps make up for some accuracy loss and gives you a sort of awesome combat expertise option that you can switch at whim.  Animal's application is fairly obvious.

@Archer
My default archer suggestion is a Swift Hunter.  As Kalleo notes the feats you describe are pretty subpar for ranged support.  Although it might depend on how your called shots rules work out.  You could just exploit those and some crazy accuracy to pull them off consistently. 

Another option might be Sneak Attack.  There are some nice debuffing ambush feats, and with Splitting, etc. you can really put the hurt on there.  Off the top of my head I'd go with a 1-level Warlock dip combined with Blend in Shadows (DotU) or just be a Dark creature (template, ToM) and Travel Devotion to hide consistently. 

@Kalleo -- thanks for the tactical advantage feat.  I don't typically look at Dragon Mag stuff, for the obvious reasons.  But, it's pretty sweet.  Might make me dust off a ranger idea.

I can't think of another way to engage in combat maneuvers -- trip, grapple, etc. -- at range except for Bloodstorm Blade.  Although the Master Thrower has a trip option and there might be some funky weapon, stuff like the Sharktooth Staff or Garotte or something, or maybe even funky arrows, that might give you some options at range. 

[Kalleo]

@Kalleo -- thanks for the tactical advantage feat.  I don't typically look at Dragon Mag stuff, for the obvious reasons.  But, it's pretty sweet.  Might make me dust off a ranger idea.

No problem. Some similar feats are Favored Dodge and Wise to Your Ways. Favored Dodge gives your FE bonus to AC, and Wise to Your Ways gives it to your saving throws. With a hunting weapon (MIC, +1 for +4 to your FE) and Improved FE, you can get it quite high.

Oh, the variant "Solitary Hunter" replaces your animal companion, and instead gives you your FE bonus to both Hit and Damage, instead of just Damage. Figured I'd mention all these if you have a ranger idea. If it's not obvious, I'm currently working on an FE: Evil based ranger. 

[phaedrusxy]

@Kalleo -- thanks for the tactical advantage feat.  I don't typically look at Dragon Mag stuff, for the obvious reasons.  But, it's pretty sweet.  Might make me dust off a ranger idea.

No problem. Some similar feats are Favored Dodge and Wise to Your Ways. Favored Dodge gives your FE bonus to AC, and Wise to Your Ways gives it to your saving throws. With a hunting weapon (MIC, +1 for +4 to your FE) and Improved FE, you can get it quite high.

Oh, the variant "Solitary Hunter" replaces your animal companion, and instead gives you your FE bonus to both Hit and Damage, instead of just Damage. Figured I'd mention all these if you have a ranger idea. If it's not obvious, I'm currently working on an FE: Evil based ranger. 

Wow. This is sounding very cool. Basically an updated "Hunter of Evil" build, which was one of my favorite builds from the old WotC 339 board. You should post the character you come up with somewhere, so we can all take a look too.

[Kalleo]

@Kalleo -- thanks for the tactical advantage feat.  I don't typically look at Dragon Mag stuff, for the obvious reasons.  But, it's pretty sweet.  Might make me dust off a ranger idea.

No problem. Some similar feats are Favored Dodge and Wise to Your Ways. Favored Dodge gives your FE bonus to AC, and Wise to Your Ways gives it to your saving throws. With a hunting weapon (MIC, +1 for +4 to your FE) and Improved FE, you can get it quite high.

Oh, the variant "Solitary Hunter" replaces your animal companion, and instead gives you your FE bonus to both Hit and Damage, instead of just Damage. Figured I'd mention all these if you have a ranger idea. If it's not obvious, I'm currently working on an FE: Evil based ranger. 

Wow. This is sounding very cool. Basically an updated "Hunter of Evil" build, which was one of my favorite builds from the old WotC 339 board. You should post the character you come up with somewhere, so we can all take a look too.

Absolutely. Appreciate the interest.  I actually found that build by name in the classic "Handy Links" thread, but unfortunately, it appears to be one of the awesome builds forever lost to time. Oh well.

Ok, returning to the posters original question (sorry for momentarily hijacking your thread, animewatcha). Two thoughts:

First, the archer. Okay, I know you're calling it an archer, but Ranged DPS/crowd control seems to be more what you're looking for, generally. If so, have you considered going Fighter/Master Thrower? With Ranged Weapon Specialization and Far Shot, you can get your distance on thrown weapons up pretty impressively high. Master Thrower is a great class in general, and offers a Ranged Trip option that actually isn't terrible. Go for the feat Brutal Throw to get your STR instead of DEX to apply to your thrown to-hit, and boom. Beefy thrower that can do solid damage and constantly knock people down. I know you said ToB is banned, so I'll just say that mentioning Bloodstorm Blade is obligatory. But seriously, it's entirely possible to make a very solid thrower without it.

Onto the Monk. Defensive Throw is good if you're confident you won't get hit much, since it triggers a free trip attempt when someone misses you. Dragon Magazine...309? Maybe it's 310...it's the one titled "War." Anyway, it has several Monk variants, arguably the best being the Broken Fist school, which gives some very nice bonuses to trip if you go into it. Likewise, the "Passive Way" style variant from the SRD gives Combat Expertise and Improved Trip as free feats, instead of the normal monk options, and the level 6 ability makes tripping even easier. Do consider not going pure monk...just picking up 4 levels of fighter can both give you more free feats (and god knows Monks need the feats to be good), and 16 BAB for that magical 4th attack. And I mentioned it previously, but the Fist of the Forest PrC really is awesome for Monks. Highly recommend. CON to AC and a decent rage-like ability that gives +DEX and bonus damage on your unarmed strike. If you're super concerned about alignment restrictions or losing monk unarmed strike damage, you could in theory take the ranger variant that gives rage, and Ascetic Hunter so your monk/ranger levels stack...but I don't really think that's necessary.

[FireInTheSky]

If homebrew is allowed, you could check out my Sniper.  The Trick Shots allow for some versatility (including Pin/Trip/Disarm).  I haven't actually played the class yet, so if you decide to use it at all, please let me know how it works out.